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Dragon Ball Vs Discussion Thread: Power, Strengths, Abilities etc.

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[Reply] #41
06-16-2012 02:07 AM
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Carter lokes wrote:

return wrote:

Carter lokes wrote: GT
Anime: Baby saga Base Goku with a portion of his power; Destroyed a Dimension.



He broke out of a dimension, and that’s an unquantifiable feat.


He’s still stronger than DBZ characters which are multiversal. And, he shattered that dimension which higher beings were controlling.



Please tell me that you’re joking.

[Reply] #42
06-16-2012 02:07 AM
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GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

The Millennium King wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

return wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote: I’m gonna start with Frieza.

First of all, what Non-Herald Marvel character’s are capable of moon, continent, mountain busting, or life wiping a planet?

Let’s start there, and then I’ll continue.



Black Bolt can. I think he can destroy solar systems with a full scream.

Then that makes him Herald level, maybe quit a bit higher if he can solar bust.

Point is, being capable of moon, mountain, continent busting, or life wiping makes you Herald level.

Now, going by simple powerscaling, Frieza was capable of soloing an entire planets population full of said Heralds with a finger, in base form.

What Marvel character would be capable of doing something like that? Thanos sure couldn’t, he’d be lucky to make it past 3 Heralds at once, let alone an entire planet full of them, while holding back as well.



So to recap, your trying to say that the average generic alien in DBZ is Herald Level?

Yes, because what non herald level being in Marvel is capable of busting either a moon, mountain, continent, or life wipe? That’s Herald level power.



Would you be able to show me a standard Saiyan soldier destroying a continent please?


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[Reply] #43
06-16-2012 02:08 AM
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GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

return wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

return wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote: I’m gonna start with Frieza.

First of all, what Non-Herald Marvel character’s are capable of moon, continent, mountain busting, or life wiping a planet?

Let’s start there, and then I’ll continue.



Black Bolt can. I think he can destroy solar systems with a full scream.

Then that makes him Herald level, maybe quit a bit higher if he can solar bust.

Point is, being capable of moon, mountain, continent busting, or life wiping makes you Herald level.

Now, going by simple powerscaling, Frieza was capable of soloing an entire planets population full of said Heralds with a finger, in base form.

What Marvel character would be capable of doing something like that? Thanos sure couldn’t, he’d be lucky to make it past 3 Heralds at once, let alone an entire planet full of them, while holding back as well.



Thanos was able to smack around the strongest herald, Surfer, like nothing, and tanked his hits with no damage whatsoever. He would be able to take an entire population with ease. Now, a low-herald can planet bust, A.K.A Terrax, and some low-heralds, like Nova, can cause a star to go supernova, granted those are special abilities. Surfer is able to absorb the energy of a star in his earlier issues, and in later ones can cause blackholes with his blasts.

Surfer is the strongest Herald, yet got stalemated by Iron Man. That tells me something about what Comic writers think about the tiers in their series. Surfer’s far more powerful than Iron Man, and yet not to the point of being able to no sell his attacks(holding back or not). Therefore, we can conclude that the same holds true for Thanos, or any other Marvel character who isn’t Omnipotent or something.

Hense the reason Odin wasn’t able to put down Thanos with a single shot, because the gap between their power means very little. So if Thanos tried to take on an entire planet full of Heralds, he’d get wasted, fast. In DBZ however, the difference between power means everything, because under no circumstances would Krillin EVER be able to take on Frieza, ever. Even if Frieza held back, Krillin would not be able to harm him, not without Kienzan.

And the gap between Silver(Black Hole creator and FTL flying speed) and Iron Man(probably not even able to bust a large section of the moon) should be like the gap between Krillin and Final Form Frieza.

So yeah, Frieza himself is far more powerful than both Silver and Thanos, for being able to take on an entire planet full of Herlads, while holding back. That’s like....the best thing Frieza’s ever done.

While we fundamentally disagree on 99% of this, let me ask you this particular thing.

what is your personal opinion on that very scenario involving Krillin using the Kienzan, which did end up being effective against Frieza. It showed that Krillin could hurt and possibly kill Frieza , through a technique. What do you make of that?


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[Reply] #44
06-16-2012 02:09 AM
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GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

return wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

return wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote: I’m gonna start with Frieza.

First of all, what Non-Herald Marvel character’s are capable of moon, continent, mountain busting, or life wiping a planet?

Let’s start there, and then I’ll continue.



Black Bolt can. I think he can destroy solar systems with a full scream.

Then that makes him Herald level, maybe quit a bit higher if he can solar bust.

Point is, being capable of moon, mountain, continent busting, or life wiping makes you Herald level.

Now, going by simple powerscaling, Frieza was capable of soloing an entire planets population full of said Heralds with a finger, in base form.

What Marvel character would be capable of doing something like that? Thanos sure couldn’t, he’d be lucky to make it past 3 Heralds at once, let alone an entire planet full of them, while holding back as well.



Thanos was able to smack around the strongest herald, Surfer, like nothing, and tanked his hits with no damage whatsoever. He would be able to take an entire population with ease. Now, a low-herald can planet bust, A.K.A Terrax, and some low-heralds, like Nova, can cause a star to go supernova, granted those are special abilities. Surfer is able to absorb the energy of a star in his earlier issues, and in later ones can cause blackholes with his blasts.

Surfer is the strongest Herald, yet got stalemated by Iron Man. That tells me something about what Comic writers think about the tiers in their series. Surfer’s far more powerful than Iron Man, and yet not to the point of being able to no sell his attacks(holding back or not). Therefore, we can conclude that the same holds true for Thanos, or any other Marvel character who isn’t Omnipotent or something.

Hense the reason Odin wasn’t able to put down Thanos with a single shot, because the gap between their power means very little. So if Thanos tried to take on an entire planet full of Heralds, he’d get wasted, fast. In DBZ however, the difference between power means everything, because under no circumstances would Krillin EVER be able to take on Frieza, ever. Even if Frieza held back, Krillin would not be able to harm him, not without Kienzan.

And the gap between Silver(Black Hole creator and FTL flying speed) and Iron Man(probably not even able to bust a large section of the moon) should be like the gap between Krillin and Final Form Frieza.

So yeah, Frieza himself is far more powerful than both Silver and Thanos, for being able to take on an entire planet full of Herlads, while holding back. That’s like....the best thing Frieza’s ever done.



Oh come on, that’s a low-showing, his consistent portrayal is him fighting against other heralds, his highest showing was him channeling the energies of the big crunch, and took down 2 Galactus level beings. basically, by your logic, surfer should be Galactus level. Now, as for Krillin vs Frieza, it all depends on how low Frieza puts his levels. Thanos was actually getting raped throughout the whole fight, it’s kind of like Goku SSJ3 vs Kid Buu, also Thanos was defeated, not killed, just because of his massive durability. In Marvel, you can have the advantage over a certain character if you have a unique ability, such as durability, unlike DBZ.


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[Reply] #45
06-16-2012 02:10 AM
superfreshbiltz.
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return wrote:

juniorsworld wrote:

juniorsworld wrote:

The Millennium King wrote:

juniorsworld wrote:

.Bored. wrote:

juniorsworld wrote: The strongest in Anime DBZ is low universal level.
The strongest in manga DBZ is what should be debated.



Universal threat via chain reaction which only Buuhan has seen to be able to do.



Not Buuhan, Vegito. But yeah, it’s still a pretty low universal feat.

@Millenium King and the rest
It doesn’t matter if moving dimensions is unquantifiable. Overall, Dende and Vegito mentioned Buuhan was going to destroy the universe by “crashing” dimensions into it. Universe is the key word here. Even if it’s quick or not, a one shot or a chain reaction, it’s still a universal feat, albeit, trash tier.



And yet they never show anything above destroying planets.

Yet somehow their universe busters.

Hmm.. No way are they going to be 'universal'.



Strong strawman.

When did I say they are universe busters? Bust means one shot, so essentially, one shot a universe. When did I say that, because I doubt they can do that?

Plus, I’m only talking about the two top tiers, Vegito and Buuhan. You act like I’m talking about the whole verse.

What’s not to get? Universe is the key word Dende and Vegito mentioned. Busting is a different topic on all its own. Overall, Buuhan was going to eventually destroy a UNIVERSE. It’s simple. He’s a trash tier universal OVERALL.



This.

Note: I didn’t say they can one shot a universe. Their (Anime Buuhan and Vegito) peak overall power is trash universal level.

This doesn’t include speed, or physical strength, or any other stuff. OK?!



Don’t worry, I get what you’re saying. They can only destroy a universe through special means, that’s it.



Now you’re getting it. Kind of like how Namek saga Krillin could possibly one shot Frieza with the destructo disc technique, even though if he throws millions of ki blasts, it wouldn’t bother Frieza at all?

[Reply] #46
06-16-2012 02:11 AM
Carter lokes
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return wrote:

Carter lokes wrote:

return wrote:

Carter lokes wrote: GT
Anime: Baby saga Base Goku with a portion of his power; Destroyed a Dimension.



He broke out of a dimension, and that’s an unquantifiable feat.


He’s still stronger than DBZ characters which are multiversal. And, he shattered that dimension which higher beings were controlling.



No one in DBZ is multiversal, where did you get that? Remember, Super buuhann was destroying the dimensional walls holding up the universe, and that was through special means, and is unquantifiable. No, the higher beings where pissed at Suguro, and where destroying the dimension, so Goku had to get out.


Look at the last page. Movie characters are multiversal. Janemba warped dimensions, Goku was shaking dimensions by transforming to SSJ 3. They weren’t pissed at Sugoro because he was cheating yes I know, Yes, they were going to destroy it(it could of been in a couple of minute or many minutes.) reason why goku said fuck it, and shattered it.

[Reply] #47
06-16-2012 02:11 AM
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The Millennium King wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

The Millennium King wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

return wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote: I’m gonna start with Frieza.

First of all, what Non-Herald Marvel character’s are capable of moon, continent, mountain busting, or life wiping a planet?

Let’s start there, and then I’ll continue.



Black Bolt can. I think he can destroy solar systems with a full scream.

Then that makes him Herald level, maybe quit a bit higher if he can solar bust.

Point is, being capable of moon, mountain, continent busting, or life wiping makes you Herald level.

Now, going by simple powerscaling, Frieza was capable of soloing an entire planets population full of said Heralds with a finger, in base form.

What Marvel character would be capable of doing something like that? Thanos sure couldn’t, he’d be lucky to make it past 3 Heralds at once, let alone an entire planet full of them, while holding back as well.



So to recap, your trying to say that the average generic alien in DBZ is Herald Level?

Yes, because what non herald level being in Marvel is capable of busting either a moon, mountain, continent, or life wipe? That’s Herald level power.



Would you be able to show me a standard Saiyan soldier destroying a continent please?

The Saiyans are a warrior race that Frieza uses to capture planets across the Universe. You have low-elite saiyans. Raditz was trash, and yet capable of mountain/moon busting. Nappa was also like a mid tier, yet was capable of busting a continent. And then there’s Vegeta, who himself was going to life wipe Earth. Even if we limited it to Raditz/Nappa level beings, that’s still a planet full of Moon/Continent busters.

Do you know how much of a threat that would be to Marvel Earth? If someone who can casually nuke a moon or continent showed up? They’d be considered Herald level.


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[Reply] #48
06-16-2012 02:14 AM
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Lol, though I just asked Godhand that, it seems the same thing is popping up in all the discussions-

At the very least, one major thing is that in fiction you have to determine what carries a character- is it techniques? or “power” in some sort of form that the character has acquired. And at REALLY high levels, how should it be utilized, what effects should it have- should it even have an effect.

/relationship between techniques, and effectiveness.


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[Reply] #49
06-16-2012 02:14 AM
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GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

The Millennium King wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

The Millennium King wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

return wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote: I’m gonna start with Frieza.

First of all, what Non-Herald Marvel character’s are capable of moon, continent, mountain busting, or life wiping a planet?

Let’s start there, and then I’ll continue.



Black Bolt can. I think he can destroy solar systems with a full scream.

Then that makes him Herald level, maybe quit a bit higher if he can solar bust.

Point is, being capable of moon, mountain, continent busting, or life wiping makes you Herald level.

Now, going by simple powerscaling, Frieza was capable of soloing an entire planets population full of said Heralds with a finger, in base form.

What Marvel character would be capable of doing something like that? Thanos sure couldn’t, he’d be lucky to make it past 3 Heralds at once, let alone an entire planet full of them, while holding back as well.



So to recap, your trying to say that the average generic alien in DBZ is Herald Level?

Yes, because what non herald level being in Marvel is capable of busting either a moon, mountain, continent, or life wipe? That’s Herald level power.



Would you be able to show me a standard Saiyan soldier destroying a continent please?

The Saiyans are a warrior race that Frieza uses to capture planets across the Universe. You have low-elite saiyans. Raditz was trash, and yet capable of mountain/moon busting. Nappa was also like a mid tier, yet was capable of busting a continent. And then there’s Vegeta, who himself was going to life wipe Earth. Even if we limited it to Raditz/Nappa level beings, that’s still a planet full of Moon/Continent busters.

Do you know how much of a threat that would be to Marvel Earth? If someone who can casually nuke a moon or continent showed up? They’d be considered Herald level.



I would actually go with Raditz gaining power with his time with Vegeta/Nappa.

Think about it, he’s one of the last surviving Saiyans. He’s going to become stronger through his survival. At least that’s the way I see it.


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We may stumble, we may fall off the path. But we always move forward!
That is the power of man!'“

[Reply] #50
06-16-2012 02:15 AM
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Carter lokes wrote:

return wrote:

Carter lokes wrote:

return wrote:

Carter lokes wrote: GT
Anime: Baby saga Base Goku with a portion of his power; Destroyed a Dimension.



He broke out of a dimension, and that’s an unquantifiable feat.


He’s still stronger than DBZ characters which are multiversal. And, he shattered that dimension which higher beings were controlling.



No one in DBZ is multiversal, where did you get that? Remember, Super buuhann was destroying the dimensional walls holding up the universe, and that was through special means, and is unquantifiable. No, the higher beings where pissed at Suguro, and where destroying the dimension, so Goku had to get out.


Look at the last page. Movie characters are multiversal. Janemba warped dimensions, Goku was shaking dimensions by transforming to SSJ 3. They weren’t pissed at Sugoro because he was cheating yes I know, Yes, they were going to destroy it(it could of been in a couple of minute or many minutes.) reason why goku said fuck it, and shattered it.



Janemba only warped King Emmas palace, which caused the bridge between life and death to be opened, and he did some warping to Hell. Goku SSJ3 only shaked the planet, and his Ki could be felt from otherworld, even if he did, like I said, unquantifiable, dimensions are merely another space that is perceived differently, and don’t mean crap unless it is the 4th dimension, 5th, and so on.


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[Reply] #51
06-16-2012 02:15 AM
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Tippership Commander wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

return wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

return wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote: I’m gonna start with Frieza.

First of all, what Non-Herald Marvel character’s are capable of moon, continent, mountain busting, or life wiping a planet?

Let’s start there, and then I’ll continue.



Black Bolt can. I think he can destroy solar systems with a full scream.

Then that makes him Herald level, maybe quit a bit higher if he can solar bust.

Point is, being capable of moon, mountain, continent busting, or life wiping makes you Herald level.

Now, going by simple powerscaling, Frieza was capable of soloing an entire planets population full of said Heralds with a finger, in base form.

What Marvel character would be capable of doing something like that? Thanos sure couldn’t, he’d be lucky to make it past 3 Heralds at once, let alone an entire planet full of them, while holding back as well.



Thanos was able to smack around the strongest herald, Surfer, like nothing, and tanked his hits with no damage whatsoever. He would be able to take an entire population with ease. Now, a low-herald can planet bust, A.K.A Terrax, and some low-heralds, like Nova, can cause a star to go supernova, granted those are special abilities. Surfer is able to absorb the energy of a star in his earlier issues, and in later ones can cause blackholes with his blasts.

Surfer is the strongest Herald, yet got stalemated by Iron Man. That tells me something about what Comic writers think about the tiers in their series. Surfer’s far more powerful than Iron Man, and yet not to the point of being able to no sell his attacks(holding back or not). Therefore, we can conclude that the same holds true for Thanos, or any other Marvel character who isn’t Omnipotent or something.

Hense the reason Odin wasn’t able to put down Thanos with a single shot, because the gap between their power means very little. So if Thanos tried to take on an entire planet full of Heralds, he’d get wasted, fast. In DBZ however, the difference between power means everything, because under no circumstances would Krillin EVER be able to take on Frieza, ever. Even if Frieza held back, Krillin would not be able to harm him, not without Kienzan.

And the gap between Silver(Black Hole creator and FTL flying speed) and Iron Man(probably not even able to bust a large section of the moon) should be like the gap between Krillin and Final Form Frieza.

So yeah, Frieza himself is far more powerful than both Silver and Thanos, for being able to take on an entire planet full of Herlads, while holding back. That’s like....the best thing Frieza’s ever done.

While we fundamentally disagree on 99% of this, let me ask you this particular thing.

what is your personal opinion on that very scenario involving Krillin using the Kienzan, which did end up being effective against Frieza. It showed that Krillin could hurt and possibly kill Frieza , through a technique. What do you make of that?

Keinzan is stated as being capable of cutting through anything. That’s it’s special within the DBZ verse.

Iron Man just blasted Surfer with energy projection, and that’s it. That’s like Krillin shooting a random ki blast at Final Form Frieza or SSJ Goku and knocking them back.

That’s more or less what happened in Surfer vs Iron Man.

But that’s only if you focus solely on feats. In reality, power gaps between Marvel character’s isn’t that large, compared to DBZ.

Thanos taking on a planet full of Heralds(while holding back) would result in him dying. Whereas Frieza does this casually, with one blast.

That shows the difference in power between the two.


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[Reply] #52
06-16-2012 02:15 AM
Carter lokes
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Carter lokes wrote:

return wrote:

Carter lokes wrote:

return wrote:

Carter lokes wrote: GT
Anime: Baby saga Base Goku with a portion of his power; Destroyed a Dimension.



He broke out of a dimension, and that’s an unquantifiable feat.


He’s still stronger than DBZ characters which are multiversal. And, he shattered that dimension which higher beings were controlling.



No one in DBZ is multiversal, where did you get that? Remember, Super buuhann was destroying the dimensional walls holding up the universe, and that was through special means, and is unquantifiable. No, the higher beings where pissed at Suguro, and where destroying the dimension, so Goku had to get out.


Look at the last page. Movie characters are multiversal. Janemba warped dimensions, Goku was shaking dimensions by transforming to SSJ 3. They weren’t pissed at Sugoro because he was cheating yes I know, Yes, they were going to destroy it(it could of been in a couple of minute or many minutes.) reason why goku said fuck it, and shattered it.


Look at the last page. Movie characters are multiversal. Janemba warped dimensions, Goku was shaking dimensions by transforming to SSJ 3. They were pissed at Sugoro because he was cheating yes I know, Yes, they were going to destroy it(it could of been in a couple of minute or many minutes.) reason why goku said fuck it, and shattered it.

Fixed.

[Reply] #53
06-16-2012 02:16 AM
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since this should (hopefully) be the thread where the power of dbz will finally be decided, I think this deserves to be stickied


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[Reply] #54
06-16-2012 02:17 AM
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The Millennium King wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

The Millennium King wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

The Millennium King wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

return wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote: I’m gonna start with Frieza.

First of all, what Non-Herald Marvel character’s are capable of moon, continent, mountain busting, or life wiping a planet?

Let’s start there, and then I’ll continue.



Black Bolt can. I think he can destroy solar systems with a full scream.

Then that makes him Herald level, maybe quit a bit higher if he can solar bust.

Point is, being capable of moon, mountain, continent busting, or life wiping makes you Herald level.

Now, going by simple powerscaling, Frieza was capable of soloing an entire planets population full of said Heralds with a finger, in base form.

What Marvel character would be capable of doing something like that? Thanos sure couldn’t, he’d be lucky to make it past 3 Heralds at once, let alone an entire planet full of them, while holding back as well.



So to recap, your trying to say that the average generic alien in DBZ is Herald Level?

Yes, because what non herald level being in Marvel is capable of busting either a moon, mountain, continent, or life wipe? That’s Herald level power.



Would you be able to show me a standard Saiyan soldier destroying a continent please?

The Saiyans are a warrior race that Frieza uses to capture planets across the Universe. You have low-elite saiyans. Raditz was trash, and yet capable of mountain/moon busting. Nappa was also like a mid tier, yet was capable of busting a continent. And then there’s Vegeta, who himself was going to life wipe Earth. Even if we limited it to Raditz/Nappa level beings, that’s still a planet full of Moon/Continent busters.

Do you know how much of a threat that would be to Marvel Earth? If someone who can casually nuke a moon or continent showed up? They’d be considered Herald level.



I would actually go with Raditz gaining power with his time with Vegeta/Nappa.

Think about it, he’s one of the last surviving Saiyans. He’s going to become stronger through his survival. At least that’s the way I see it.

Again, Saiyans are all soldiers to Frieza, used to take over planets across the Universe. Also, when Vegeta was thinking about Kid Bud destroying hundreds of planets in a few years, he thought about how Saiyans are capable of doing the same thing.

So that backs up the whole “planet full of Heralds” argument for me even more.


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[Reply] #55
06-16-2012 02:18 AM
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Alright, look. We have DBO Goku and Vegeta, which BTW is canon to both the manga and anime, and they caused a supernova during their final battle. So, I personally put them at high-transcendent.


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[Reply] #56
06-16-2012 02:19 AM
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GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

The Millennium King wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

The Millennium King wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

The Millennium King wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

return wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote: I’m gonna start with Frieza.

First of all, what Non-Herald Marvel character’s are capable of moon, continent, mountain busting, or life wiping a planet?

Let’s start there, and then I’ll continue.



Black Bolt can. I think he can destroy solar systems with a full scream.

Then that makes him Herald level, maybe quit a bit higher if he can solar bust.

Point is, being capable of moon, mountain, continent busting, or life wiping makes you Herald level.

Now, going by simple powerscaling, Frieza was capable of soloing an entire planets population full of said Heralds with a finger, in base form.

What Marvel character would be capable of doing something like that? Thanos sure couldn’t, he’d be lucky to make it past 3 Heralds at once, let alone an entire planet full of them, while holding back as well.



So to recap, your trying to say that the average generic alien in DBZ is Herald Level?

Yes, because what non herald level being in Marvel is capable of busting either a moon, mountain, continent, or life wipe? That’s Herald level power.



Would you be able to show me a standard Saiyan soldier destroying a continent please?

The Saiyans are a warrior race that Frieza uses to capture planets across the Universe. You have low-elite saiyans. Raditz was trash, and yet capable of mountain/moon busting. Nappa was also like a mid tier, yet was capable of busting a continent. And then there’s Vegeta, who himself was going to life wipe Earth. Even if we limited it to Raditz/Nappa level beings, that’s still a planet full of Moon/Continent busters.

Do you know how much of a threat that would be to Marvel Earth? If someone who can casually nuke a moon or continent showed up? They’d be considered Herald level.



I would actually go with Raditz gaining power with his time with Vegeta/Nappa.

Think about it, he’s one of the last surviving Saiyans. He’s going to become stronger through his survival. At least that’s the way I see it.

Again, Saiyans are all soldiers to Frieza, used to take over planets across the Universe. Also, when Vegeta was thinking about Kid Bud destroying hundreds of planets in a few years, he thought about how Saiyans are capable of doing the same thing.

So that backs up the whole “planet full of Heralds” argument for me even more.



Which Supreme Kai then said lol no, and proceeded to tell him how he and the other kais could have one-shotted Frieza.


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[Reply] #57
06-16-2012 02:23 AM
Carter lokes
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return wrote:

Carter lokes wrote:

return wrote:

Carter lokes wrote:

return wrote:

Carter lokes wrote: GT
Anime: Baby saga Base Goku with a portion of his power; Destroyed a Dimension.



He broke out of a dimension, and that’s an unquantifiable feat.


He’s still stronger than DBZ characters which are multiversal. And, he shattered that dimension which higher beings were controlling.



No one in DBZ is multiversal, where did you get that? Remember, Super buuhann was destroying the dimensional walls holding up the universe, and that was through special means, and is unquantifiable. No, the higher beings where pissed at Suguro, and where destroying the dimension, so Goku had to get out.


Look at the last page. Movie characters are multiversal. Janemba warped dimensions, Goku was shaking dimensions by transforming to SSJ 3. They weren’t pissed at Sugoro because he was cheating yes I know, Yes, they were going to destroy it(it could of been in a couple of minute or many minutes.) reason why goku said fuck it, and shattered it.



Janemba only warped King Emmas palace, which caused the bridge between life and death to be opened, and he did some warping to Hell. Goku SSJ3 only shaked the planet, and his Ki could be felt from otherworld, even if he did, like I said, unquantifiable, dimensions are merely another space that is perceived differently, and don’t mean crap unless it is the 4th dimension, 5th, and so on.


1.) Janemba warped the Other World and the dimension were the tournament was being held ( goku also stated that janemba could destroy the universe and also said janemba warped every dimension in creation.)
2.) Goku wasn’t even in the planet he was IN HELL and he was shaking all of the other world plus the dimension were the tournament was being held.
3.) DBZ doesn’t have 4 th dimension and 5th dimension. But based on the a map(which I’m not saying is correct but gives a general idea) there are 3 main dimension (not saying there’s only 3) and all of them are the same size. DBZ universe where earth is located is infinite. So it’s likely that the other dimensions are also the same size, therefore it is quantifiable.

[Reply] #58
06-16-2012 02:23 AM
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Tippership Commander wrote: i am posting some of my old arguments from various threads - about how I view DBZ characters as roughly..I guess, average mid-tier? I don’t know hwo to put it, because they don’t average out- they’re Herald level with their firepower and due to the attributes of ki, making them Wave Motion Gunners in person(ya ya, sue me, I used a trope. Too bad. ). Other than that, their stats I dont feel are quite that high in other categories. However, they do go a bit far on their firepower- but are ALWAYS circumstantial.

I am aware it’s not a common viewpoint.

Tippership Commander wrote:

Vile wrote: What was Goku considered power-wise after he merged with the Dragon balls, or are we not including that version? I mean, that alone would allow him to just revive himself after death even if he did die. (Joking about that partially).

Granted I know little about Bill here, so would someone mind filling me in? A friend tells me he is cosmic to some degree.

(Trying to read up on him now).



I don’t get into these often- But I’ll give my opinion

BRB is extremely close to Thor - they are see nas Equals. BRB has had some recent decent feats against some heralds of Galactus.


Which puts him at the High Herald level about.


Now, I am part of the camp that feels a high herald would deal with most DBZ/GT characters decently...Perhaps not with ease though.

The reason we feel that way is because the poewrscaling argument I see so often, does not hold up too well.

Nevertheless, I imagine this is actually similar to how I would analyse Thor vs Goku..

Let’s see..

GT Goku’s (i’m throwing out the Dragonballs issue- I mean, its all speculative, there)
got decent durability- at Super Saiyan 4 is when he starts having som decent Durability feats

Other than that, he is basically a DBZ char- and DBZ chars in my own eyes aren’t Herald level in Speed necessairly, or strength(although I can see a case for them somewhat having low-herald stats)- but what is interesting about DBZ/GT is their power output. They can trigger planets to blow up....at their best.

They are wave motion gunners, with melee skills and the rapidmovement that makes them hard to combat in a lot of situations in fiction.


Their durability is not too great, but it’s subjective, as they survive the said wave motion guns.


Against BRB- I’m superimposing Thor here, and apologize to BRB fans..

LEts use SS4 Goku- He has Instant Transmission, a Technique which CAN be reacted to(Super 17 showed this)- yet, if you’re not used to suddenly countering this, it can be nasty.

melee-DBZ chars can melee fast- I would say a minor superspeed variant- this is bad unless you focus on using your own superspeed factor..

Anyway, in a blasting fight...I don’t know how to call this....I’ll mention Goku has the advantage of having been in beamfights....but he needs to really hammer BRB ...


Speed-I have a suspicion BRB is faster- but Goku is more likely to use his own speed as part of most of his combat moves...

durability...SSj4 Goku can take a beating, but beat him up right, and he’ll be suffering...

Techniques- I’m not suitable to call it here, but Goku’s got versatility like Solar Flare

Range...BRB can go into Space, Goku is in trouble, as BRB can go into enviroments he cant. He can also knock him into Space/into the Earth deep....

Okay, for some real imput: What seperates GT Goku from DBZ Goku- he’s a kid, and some of his abilities are hard to use in weaker forms.

Against any High herald, I have noted a Saiyan who can transform may have an advantage in that, if he is grappling and transforms- it doesn’t matter if the Herald is MASSIVELY stronger- they have to be ready to adjust to a X50 increase, otherwise that’ll knock them back, allowing the Saiyan to bring some offense to bear....


Beta Ray Bill has the absolutes for his own abilities- at a high enough range that I consider him a solid victor- however, I always note that in any battle that’s not too far one sided, it’s anyone’s game.

Goku’s issue is that some hits from BRB will be seriously hurting him. He needs to try to make usage of his Ki Blasting abiltiies to win a blasting fight. He needs to aviod his hammer, and needs to make massive use of the speed he has. A coupel of 10X Kamehamehas will buy him some time...Basically hit and run- but Goku wears down, he can’t keep fighting for days like High Heralds. Therefore he really really needs to play it smart/annoy BRB. Goku’s actually good at psych warfare sometimes, so he could pull off knocking around BRb. As for finishing him off, I don’t see it....but he can get what I consider a win by really playing it smart.

The big problem is he doesn’t know what BRB can do- and that’ll cost him when BRB pulls out his tricks.



I’d rather not get into a argument over this, as I am not a fan of debating with DBZ characters involved......(Last major fight I was in involved Goku and Vegeta and DBZ allies against guys like Super Sonic, Thanos with HOTU/IG, all of DC and MArvel- and the DBZ fans were coming in by the dozens)..so I’ll take my leave here.


I suspect a few select DBZ supporters do understand where their opponents are coming form though. Not a lot, however.

:vanishes:



Tippership Commander wrote: Allright, I’ll give a serious answer- despite my gut telling me I should stick to my usual course of staying out of these.

I am someone who feels Heralds are beyond DBZ characters generally, but for this question


...Frieza in Marvel, lets see-

Rapid movement- that abilitity alone lets him do a lot of damage, however those with a not too bad superspeed factor can surpass it. However, Frieza has very good durability- and can be knocked around. I call being sliced in half not really durability per se, but anyways


Strength- nothing too special, but enough to send beings flying and through mountains......this isn’t Herald level strength, but it’s past the point where he can attempt to fistfight a LOT of beings above his strength class


his PK/TK is decent...

Finally, his Energy Projection- I really don’t have an opinion on the early frieza showing, as we’re not sure of the planet size that he did in “base form”

Oh, by the way ,the transformations in DBZ can’t properly mean much in comic terms- depending on the character. Frieza’s transformations don’t do much for his basic attributes but unlock more of his abilities- this is highly irrelevant against comic characters, i’m serious.

Even from a fan’s point of view, he either is far ahead of them, or massively under- his transformations dont cover enough of a gap, because all of his forms are too close. In flat attributing, that is.

ENERGY projection- he can output enough to trigger planet cores to detonate....

He can cause small islands/parts of land to be destroyed- large explosions..

Now this, category alone, probably fits into the Low herald category - perhaps mid, depending on who you call a herald, and low herald.

However, the rest of his attributes aren’t in the Herald class.

Then again, they don’t have to be- his combination of abilities makes him a massive threat.


I don’t know what the levels are today below low herald- meta? Because I’m pretty sure his speed + durability puts him a bit past Meta.

His destructive power enters herald range, as do all later on DBZ chars....


But honestly, he is a DBZ character- and DBZ specializes in energy projection/triggering planets blowing up. Wave Motion Gunners, basically.



Now, specifically? Who knows. He does not regenerate, and is not Juggernaut in durability. But he still takes a beating that through get put through generally, and so on.

His Energy Projection can be shaped but is still limited by the fact he outputs Ki. Despite that, he still is very good at this.

Depends on which of his attributes you classify him as. He’s not a full herald, but he is not 100% in the lower categories.

His whole arsenel of powers,the output he can generate on the higher levels of Ki blasts, combined with the way he uses them and his brains though, makes him quite effective against those under him, and against those above him, he is able to put up a fight, and against some, escape.
These are my thoughts on this- now you know what a (Comic supporter, is it these days?) /have the opposite side’s point of view.

:/

-----------------------------------------------TC
PS: If you think he’s street level- his rapid movement could be used to do far too much, plus his blasts are a bit too destructive high end. If you think he’s a solid mid/true herald, you’ll see he doesn’t measure up in the total high-end feats such as durability(although this is tricky), and speed. If you think he is skyfather- he lacks capability.

If you think he is a abstract....Again, what capability? what far potential?

IF you think he is nigh- then I give up, as I doub’t I’ll ever change anyone’s mind.

I do look at things objectively though.



for the most part this is how i view the topic at hand


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[Reply] #59
06-16-2012 02:24 AM
Joined: 01-28-2012
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Ragex
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return wrote: Alright, look. We have DBO Goku and Vegeta, which BTW is canon to both the manga and anime, and they caused a supernova during their final battle. So, I personally put them at high-transcendent.



is DBO actually out yet?


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[Reply] #60
06-16-2012 02:25 AM
Carter lokes
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Anyway, Ill continue this tomorrow.

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