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Dragon Ball Vs Discussion Thread: Power, Strengths, Abilities etc.

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[Reply] #21
06-16-2012 01:49 AM
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GT
Anime: Baby saga Base Goku with a portion of his power; Destroyed a Dimension.

[Reply] #22
06-16-2012 01:50 AM
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Carter lokes wrote: GT
Anime: Baby saga Base Goku with a portion of his power; Destroyed a Dimension.



He broke out of a dimension, and that’s an unquantifiable feat.


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[Reply] #23
06-16-2012 01:51 AM
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I can see were this thread is going to go..


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[Reply] #24
06-16-2012 01:52 AM
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Tippership, we’ve had TONS of discussions on DBZ’s power, yet they never get resolved or end well.


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06-16-2012 01:52 AM
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The Millennium King wrote: I can see were this thread is going to go..



I’m actually quite anxious to see how it would end up.


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return wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote: I’m gonna start with Frieza.

First of all, what Non-Herald Marvel character’s are capable of moon, continent, mountain busting, or life wiping a planet?

Let’s start there, and then I’ll continue.



Black Bolt can. I think he can destroy solar systems with a full scream.

Then that makes him Herald level, maybe quit a bit higher if he can solar bust.

Point is, being capable of moon, mountain, continent busting, or life wiping makes you Herald level.

Now, going by simple powerscaling, Frieza was capable of soloing an entire planets population full of said Heralds with a finger, in base form.

What Marvel character would be capable of doing something like that? Thanos sure couldn’t, he’d be lucky to make it past 3 Heralds at once, let alone an entire planet full of them, while holding back as well.


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[Reply] #27
06-16-2012 01:54 AM
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This is gonna end up being a sea of faggots wanking DBZ to high-heavens.


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[Reply] #28
06-16-2012 01:55 AM
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Omniwhatever wrote: Tippership, we’ve had TONS of discussions on DBZ’s power, yet they never get resolved or end well.

...I know. trust me, I’ve seen them from 06 onto now.

However, this was requested by a few members who want a serious discussion to try to understand what everyone else’s reasons are on this subject. And why.

Plus this subject keeps popping up over and over and over indirectly in other topics.

Since people have actually requested a serious discussion, let’s see if we can actually get it.


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Edited 06-16-2012 01:56 AM by Tippership Commander
[Reply] #29
06-16-2012 01:56 AM
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GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

return wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote: I’m gonna start with Frieza.

First of all, what Non-Herald Marvel character’s are capable of moon, continent, mountain busting, or life wiping a planet?

Let’s start there, and then I’ll continue.



Black Bolt can. I think he can destroy solar systems with a full scream.

Then that makes him Herald level, maybe quit a bit higher if he can solar bust.

Point is, being capable of moon, mountain, continent busting, or life wiping makes you Herald level.

Now, going by simple powerscaling, Frieza was capable of soloing an entire planets population full of said Heralds with a finger, in base form.

What Marvel character would be capable of doing something like that? Thanos sure couldn’t, he’d be lucky to make it past 3 Heralds at once, let alone an entire planet full of them, while holding back as well.



Thanos was able to smack around the strongest herald, Surfer, like nothing, and tanked his hits with no damage whatsoever. He would be able to take an entire population with ease. Now, a low-herald can planet bust, A.K.A Terrax, and some low-heralds, like Nova, can cause a star to go supernova, granted those are special abilities. Surfer is able to absorb the energy of a star in his earlier issues, and in later ones can cause blackholes with his blasts.

Remember, in both anime and manga canon, DBO is a canon continuation of both, since Akira actually wrote the story elements and approved the game, along with Toei. And in it Goku and Vegetas final battle caused a supernova.


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Edited 06-16-2012 01:59 AM by The Merchant
[Reply] #30
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GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

return wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote: I’m gonna start with Frieza.

First of all, what Non-Herald Marvel character’s are capable of moon, continent, mountain busting, or life wiping a planet?

Let’s start there, and then I’ll continue.



Black Bolt can. I think he can destroy solar systems with a full scream.

Then that makes him Herald level, maybe quit a bit higher if he can solar bust.

Point is, being capable of moon, mountain, continent busting, or life wiping makes you Herald level.

Now, going by simple powerscaling, Frieza was capable of soloing an entire planets population full of said Heralds with a finger, in base form.

What Marvel character would be capable of doing something like that? Thanos sure couldn’t, he’d be lucky to make it past 3 Heralds at once, let alone an entire planet full of them, while holding back as well.



So to recap, your trying to say that the average generic alien in DBZ is Herald Level?


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[Reply] #31
06-16-2012 01:58 AM
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Tippership Commander wrote:

Omniwhatever wrote: Tippership, we’ve had TONS of discussions on DBZ’s power, yet they never get resolved or end well.

...I know. trust me, I’ve seen them from 06 onto now.

However, this was requested by a few members who want a serious discussion to try to understand what everyone else’s reasons are on this subject. And why.

Plus this subject keeps popping up over and over and over indirectly in other topics.

Since people have actually requested a serious discussion, let’s see if we can actually get it.



I hope this can be the definitive and final DBZ power topic lol.

Seriously, if we get almost everyone to agree, this deserves to be stickied.


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Edited 06-16-2012 01:58 AM by Omniwhatever
[Reply] #32
06-16-2012 01:59 AM
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return wrote:

Carter lokes wrote: GT
Anime: Baby saga Base Goku with a portion of his power; Destroyed a Dimension.



He broke out of a dimension, and that’s an unquantifiable feat.


He’s still stronger than DBZ characters which are multiversal. And, he shattered that dimension which higher beings were controlling.

[Reply] #33
06-16-2012 01:59 AM
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Omniwhatever wrote:

Tippership Commander wrote:

Omniwhatever wrote: Tippership, we’ve had TONS of discussions on DBZ’s power, yet they never get resolved or end well.

...I know. trust me, I’ve seen them from 06 onto now.

However, this was requested by a few members who want a serious discussion to try to understand what everyone else’s reasons are on this subject. And why.

Plus this subject keeps popping up over and over and over indirectly in other topics.

Since people have actually requested a serious discussion, let’s see if we can actually get it.



I hope this can be the definitive and final DBZ power topic lol.

Seriously, if we get almost everyone to agree, this deserves to be stickied.

I’ve actually already considered that and came to the same conclusion. I may indeed sticky this..


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[Reply] #34
06-16-2012 02:00 AM
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juniorsworld wrote:

The Millennium King wrote:

juniorsworld wrote:

.Bored. wrote:

juniorsworld wrote: The strongest in Anime DBZ is low universal level.
The strongest in manga DBZ is what should be debated.



Universal threat via chain reaction which only Buuhan has seen to be able to do.



Not Buuhan, Vegito. But yeah, it’s still a pretty low universal feat.

@Millenium King and the rest
It doesn’t matter if moving dimensions is unquantifiable. Overall, Dende and Vegito mentioned Buuhan was going to destroy the universe by “crashing” dimensions into it. Universe is the key word here. Even if it’s quick or not, a one shot or a chain reaction, it’s still a universal feat, albeit, trash tier.



And yet they never show anything above destroying planets.

Yet somehow their universe busters.

Hmm.. No way are they going to be 'universal'.



Strong strawman.

When did I say they are universe busters? Bust means one shot, so essentially, one shot a universe. When did I say that, because I doubt they can do that?

Plus, I’m only talking about the two top tiers, Vegito and Buuhan. You act like I’m talking about the whole verse.

What’s not to get? Universe is the key word Dende and Vegito mentioned. Busting is a different topic on all its own. Overall, Buuhan was going to eventually destroy a UNIVERSE. It’s simple. He’s a trash tier universal OVERALL.



This.

Note: I didn’t say they can one shot a universe. Their (Anime Buuhan and Vegito) peak overall power is trash universal level.

This doesn’t include speed, or physical strength, or any other stuff. OK?!


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Edited 06-16-2012 02:00 AM by juniorsworld
[Reply] #35
06-16-2012 02:02 AM
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juniorsworld wrote:

juniorsworld wrote:

The Millennium King wrote:

juniorsworld wrote:

.Bored. wrote:

juniorsworld wrote: The strongest in Anime DBZ is low universal level.
The strongest in manga DBZ is what should be debated.



Universal threat via chain reaction which only Buuhan has seen to be able to do.



Not Buuhan, Vegito. But yeah, it’s still a pretty low universal feat.

@Millenium King and the rest
It doesn’t matter if moving dimensions is unquantifiable. Overall, Dende and Vegito mentioned Buuhan was going to destroy the universe by “crashing” dimensions into it. Universe is the key word here. Even if it’s quick or not, a one shot or a chain reaction, it’s still a universal feat, albeit, trash tier.



And yet they never show anything above destroying planets.

Yet somehow their universe busters.

Hmm.. No way are they going to be 'universal'.



Strong strawman.

When did I say they are universe busters? Bust means one shot, so essentially, one shot a universe. When did I say that, because I doubt they can do that?

Plus, I’m only talking about the two top tiers, Vegito and Buuhan. You act like I’m talking about the whole verse.

What’s not to get? Universe is the key word Dende and Vegito mentioned. Busting is a different topic on all its own. Overall, Buuhan was going to eventually destroy a UNIVERSE. It’s simple. He’s a trash tier universal OVERALL.



This.

Note: I didn’t say they can one shot a universe. Their (Anime Buuhan and Vegito) peak overall power is trash universal level.

This doesn’t include speed, or physical strength, or any other stuff. OK?!



Don’t worry, I get what you’re saying. They can only destroy a universe through special means, that’s it.


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06-16-2012 02:03 AM
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Vegito?


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[Reply] #37
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Carter lokes wrote:

return wrote:

Carter lokes wrote: GT
Anime: Baby saga Base Goku with a portion of his power; Destroyed a Dimension.



He broke out of a dimension, and that’s an unquantifiable feat.


He’s still stronger than DBZ characters which are multiversal. And, he shattered that dimension which higher beings were controlling.



No one in DBZ is multiversal, where did you get that? Remember, Super buuhann was destroying the dimensional walls holding up the universe, and that was through special means, and is unquantifiable. No, the higher beings where pissed at Suguro, and where destroying the dimension, so Goku had to get out.


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return wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

return wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote: I’m gonna start with Frieza.

First of all, what Non-Herald Marvel character’s are capable of moon, continent, mountain busting, or life wiping a planet?

Let’s start there, and then I’ll continue.



Black Bolt can. I think he can destroy solar systems with a full scream.

Then that makes him Herald level, maybe quit a bit higher if he can solar bust.

Point is, being capable of moon, mountain, continent busting, or life wiping makes you Herald level.

Now, going by simple powerscaling, Frieza was capable of soloing an entire planets population full of said Heralds with a finger, in base form.

What Marvel character would be capable of doing something like that? Thanos sure couldn’t, he’d be lucky to make it past 3 Heralds at once, let alone an entire planet full of them, while holding back as well.



Thanos was able to smack around the strongest herald, Surfer, like nothing, and tanked his hits with no damage whatsoever. He would be able to take an entire population with ease. Now, a low-herald can planet bust, A.K.A Terrax, and some low-heralds, like Nova, can cause a star to go supernova, granted those are special abilities. Surfer is able to absorb the energy of a star in his earlier issues, and in later ones can cause blackholes with his blasts.

Surfer is the strongest Herald, yet got stalemated by Iron Man. That tells me something about what Comic writers think about the tiers in their series. Surfer’s far more powerful than Iron Man, and yet not to the point of being able to no sell his attacks(holding back or not). Therefore, we can conclude that the same holds true for Thanos, or any other Marvel character who isn’t Omnipotent or something.

Hense the reason Odin wasn’t able to put down Thanos with a single shot, because the gap between their power means very little. So if Thanos tried to take on an entire planet full of Heralds, he’d get wasted, fast. In DBZ however, the difference between power means everything, because under no circumstances would Krillin EVER be able to take on Frieza, ever. Even if Frieza held back, Krillin would not be able to harm him, not without Kienzan.

And the gap between Silver(Black Hole creator and FTL flying speed) and Iron Man(probably not even able to bust a large section of the moon) should be like the gap between Krillin and Final Form Frieza.

So yeah, Frieza himself is far more powerful than both Silver and Thanos, for being able to take on an entire planet full of Herlads, while holding back. That’s like....the best thing Frieza’s ever done.


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[Reply] #39
06-16-2012 02:06 AM
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Tippership Commander wrote: i am posting some of my old arguments from various threads - about how I view DBZ characters as roughly..I guess, average mid-tier? I don’t know hwo to put it, because they don’t average out- they’re Herald level with their firepower and due to the attributes of ki, making them Wave Motion Gunners in person(ya ya, sue me, I used a trope. Too bad. ). Other than that, their stats I dont feel are quite that high in other categories. However, they do go a bit far on their firepower- but are ALWAYS circumstantial.

I am aware it’s not a common viewpoint.

Tippership Commander wrote:

Vile wrote: What was Goku considered power-wise after he merged with the Dragon balls, or are we not including that version? I mean, that alone would allow him to just revive himself after death even if he did die. (Joking about that partially).

Granted I know little about Bill here, so would someone mind filling me in? A friend tells me he is cosmic to some degree.

(Trying to read up on him now).



I don’t get into these often- But I’ll give my opinion

BRB is extremely close to Thor - they are see nas Equals. BRB has had some recent decent feats against some heralds of Galactus.


Which puts him at the High Herald level about.


Now, I am part of the camp that feels a high herald would deal with most DBZ/GT characters decently...Perhaps not with ease though.

The reason we feel that way is because the poewrscaling argument I see so often, does not hold up too well.

Nevertheless, I imagine this is actually similar to how I would analyse Thor vs Goku..

Let’s see..

GT Goku’s (i’m throwing out the Dragonballs issue- I mean, its all speculative, there)
got decent durability- at Super Saiyan 4 is when he starts having som decent Durability feats

Other than that, he is basically a DBZ char- and DBZ chars in my own eyes aren’t Herald level in Speed necessairly, or strength(although I can see a case for them somewhat having low-herald stats)- but what is interesting about DBZ/GT is their power output. They can trigger planets to blow up....at their best.

They are wave motion gunners, with melee skills and the rapidmovement that makes them hard to combat in a lot of situations in fiction.


Their durability is not too great, but it’s subjective, as they survive the said wave motion guns.


Against BRB- I’m superimposing Thor here, and apologize to BRB fans..

LEts use SS4 Goku- He has Instant Transmission, a Technique which CAN be reacted to(Super 17 showed this)- yet, if you’re not used to suddenly countering this, it can be nasty.

melee-DBZ chars can melee fast- I would say a minor superspeed variant- this is bad unless you focus on using your own superspeed factor..

Anyway, in a blasting fight...I don’t know how to call this....I’ll mention Goku has the advantage of having been in beamfights....but he needs to really hammer BRB ...


Speed-I have a suspicion BRB is faster- but Goku is more likely to use his own speed as part of most of his combat moves...

durability...SSj4 Goku can take a beating, but beat him up right, and he’ll be suffering...

Techniques- I’m not suitable to call it here, but Goku’s got versatility like Solar Flare

Range...BRB can go into Space, Goku is in trouble, as BRB can go into enviroments he cant. He can also knock him into Space/into the Earth deep....

Okay, for some real imput: What seperates GT Goku from DBZ Goku- he’s a kid, and some of his abilities are hard to use in weaker forms.

Against any High herald, I have noted a Saiyan who can transform may have an advantage in that, if he is grappling and transforms- it doesn’t matter if the Herald is MASSIVELY stronger- they have to be ready to adjust to a X50 increase, otherwise that’ll knock them back, allowing the Saiyan to bring some offense to bear....


Beta Ray Bill has the absolutes for his own abilities- at a high enough range that I consider him a solid victor- however, I always note that in any battle that’s not too far one sided, it’s anyone’s game.

Goku’s issue is that some hits from BRB will be seriously hurting him. He needs to try to make usage of his Ki Blasting abiltiies to win a blasting fight. He needs to aviod his hammer, and needs to make massive use of the speed he has. A coupel of 10X Kamehamehas will buy him some time...Basically hit and run- but Goku wears down, he can’t keep fighting for days like High Heralds. Therefore he really really needs to play it smart/annoy BRB. Goku’s actually good at psych warfare sometimes, so he could pull off knocking around BRb. As for finishing him off, I don’t see it....but he can get what I consider a win by really playing it smart.

The big problem is he doesn’t know what BRB can do- and that’ll cost him when BRB pulls out his tricks.



I’d rather not get into a argument over this, as I am not a fan of debating with DBZ characters involved......(Last major fight I was in involved Goku and Vegeta and DBZ allies against guys like Super Sonic, Thanos with HOTU/IG, all of DC and MArvel- and the DBZ fans were coming in by the dozens)..so I’ll take my leave here.


I suspect a few select DBZ supporters do understand where their opponents are coming form though. Not a lot, however.

:vanishes:



Tippership Commander wrote: Allright, I’ll give a serious answer- despite my gut telling me I should stick to my usual course of staying out of these.

I am someone who feels Heralds are beyond DBZ characters generally, but for this question


...Frieza in Marvel, lets see-

Rapid movement- that abilitity alone lets him do a lot of damage, however those with a not too bad superspeed factor can surpass it. However, Frieza has very good durability- and can be knocked around. I call being sliced in half not really durability per se, but anyways


Strength- nothing too special, but enough to send beings flying and through mountains......this isn’t Herald level strength, but it’s past the point where he can attempt to fistfight a LOT of beings above his strength class


his PK/TK is decent...

Finally, his Energy Projection- I really don’t have an opinion on the early frieza showing, as we’re not sure of the planet size that he did in “base form”

Oh, by the way ,the transformations in DBZ can’t properly mean much in comic terms- depending on the character. Frieza’s transformations don’t do much for his basic attributes but unlock more of his abilities- this is highly irrelevant against comic characters, i’m serious.

Even from a fan’s point of view, he either is far ahead of them, or massively under- his transformations dont cover enough of a gap, because all of his forms are too close. In flat attributing, that is.

ENERGY projection- he can output enough to trigger planet cores to detonate....

He can cause small islands/parts of land to be destroyed- large explosions..

Now this, category alone, probably fits into the Low herald category - perhaps mid, depending on who you call a herald, and low herald.

However, the rest of his attributes aren’t in the Herald class.

Then again, they don’t have to be- his combination of abilities makes him a massive threat.


I don’t know what the levels are today below low herald- meta? Because I’m pretty sure his speed + durability puts him a bit past Meta.

His destructive power enters herald range, as do all later on DBZ chars....


But honestly, he is a DBZ character- and DBZ specializes in energy projection/triggering planets blowing up. Wave Motion Gunners, basically.



Now, specifically? Who knows. He does not regenerate, and is not Juggernaut in durability. But he still takes a beating that through get put through generally, and so on.

His Energy Projection can be shaped but is still limited by the fact he outputs Ki. Despite that, he still is very good at this.

Depends on which of his attributes you classify him as. He’s not a full herald, but he is not 100% in the lower categories.

His whole arsenel of powers,the output he can generate on the higher levels of Ki blasts, combined with the way he uses them and his brains though, makes him quite effective against those under him, and against those above him, he is able to put up a fight, and against some, escape.
These are my thoughts on this- now you know what a (Comic supporter, is it these days?) /have the opposite side’s point of view.

:/

-----------------------------------------------TC
PS: If you think he’s street level- his rapid movement could be used to do far too much, plus his blasts are a bit too destructive high end. If you think he’s a solid mid/true herald, you’ll see he doesn’t measure up in the total high-end feats such as durability(although this is tricky), and speed. If you think he is skyfather- he lacks capability.

If you think he is a abstract....Again, what capability? what far potential?

IF you think he is nigh- then I give up, as I doub’t I’ll ever change anyone’s mind.

I do look at things objectively though.





On topic: I quoted my views on this- however DragonBallZ, is quite ...iffy in their power levels. Powerscaling isn’t perfectly referenced, plus there is a LOT of alluding, and that is why on this site they debate in threads like these two.


http://lounge.moviecodec.com/religion/gogeta-ssj4-vs-godbibleread-op-96934/
http://lounge.moviecodec.com/vs-forum/goku-and-vegeta-vs-thanos-odin-phoenix-galactus-anti-monitor-sonic-shadow-90910/

Perhaps it’s because they span from Dragonball to DragonballGT, and perhaps now to DBO. That’s why you see threads like the above one involving DragonballZ vs GOD ALMIGHTY from the Bible, and the other one involving DragonBallZ against DC, MARVEL, etc- as a whole.

It’s funny, even when comparing to anime which wouldn’t be what they are today without DBZ though, I don’t see the same...standards. DragonballZ introduced a lot if not inventing a lot- and that implied power is what a lot of anime and manga rely on today to go far.


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The Millennium King wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote:

return wrote:

GodHandZaWarudo wrote: I’m gonna start with Frieza.

First of all, what Non-Herald Marvel character’s are capable of moon, continent, mountain busting, or life wiping a planet?

Let’s start there, and then I’ll continue.



Black Bolt can. I think he can destroy solar systems with a full scream.

Then that makes him Herald level, maybe quit a bit higher if he can solar bust.

Point is, being capable of moon, mountain, continent busting, or life wiping makes you Herald level.

Now, going by simple powerscaling, Frieza was capable of soloing an entire planets population full of said Heralds with a finger, in base form.

What Marvel character would be capable of doing something like that? Thanos sure couldn’t, he’d be lucky to make it past 3 Heralds at once, let alone an entire planet full of them, while holding back as well.



So to recap, your trying to say that the average generic alien in DBZ is Herald Level?

Yes, because what non herald level being in Marvel is capable of busting either a moon, mountain, continent, or life wipe? That’s Herald level power.


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