Remember me
[Forgot password?] [Register]
[Login]
menu

Dragon Ball Vs Discussion Thread: Power, Strengths, Abilities etc.

[1] 2 3 4 Next > Last >>

[Reply] #1
06-16-2012 01:20 AM
Joined: 11-02-2006
Posts: 9,976
offline
Tippership Commander
Tippership Commander
The Last of the T's of Legend.....
Rep: 231

You guys Suck. You all keep clamoring for a discussion on this(a lot of you), and then don’t do much. Lol, or you have a Mod or Admin unlock a topic, then sit and do nothing xD(EDIT: Rage actually did something, kudos)
Fine, I"LL DO IT. Cheap skates.


This thread is for serious discussion of DragonballZ and where it stands.

For an idea of why this should be discussed, see these threads.
http://lounge.moviecodec.com/religion/gogeta-ssj4-vs-godbibleread-op-96934/
http://lounge.moviecodec.com/vs-forum/goku-and-vegeta-vs-thanos-odin-phoenix-galactus-anti-monitor-sonic-shadow-90910/

You guys all know the deal. DBZ is ..quite controversial in where it’s power stands as a whole universe. This gets discussed often in topics such as this, and goes on for a while- and especially when talking destructive capability, and if powerscaling should be used, or not.

it spans from discussing whenther Goku is a planet buster, or a “megaverse” buster. It spans if they are Skyfather level, or if they are the fastest beings in fiction.
Or how they stack up against DC Comics, Or MARVEL Comics, or ARCHIE, or IMAGE, or SEGA, or Nintendo, or Sony, or X anime, etc. or even the BIBLE/GOD ALMIGHTY. How they perform against really high tiers in fiction. Or lower tiers/ whenther how far you go in fiction is determined by what you can blow up , or if tere’s more than solely that.



Keep in mind this is one of the most heated topics on this site- and, the subject of DragonBallZ is the most ...heated topic on this site , so I ask that you give serious responses to others. I’m sure a lot of opinions many people have will seem...crazy to others, but that does not matter.



Tornado The Dragon - a.k.a Big Brother wrote:

Requested by: Gangster Broly
Calculated by: ~Tornado The Dragon - a.k.a Big Brother~
Link to calc: http://lounge.moviecodec.com/vs-general/dragonballz-discussion-about-how-powerful-they-are-reasons-etc-152605/281#msg5609462
Post #: 5,614

And this is for you too, Raniero, curstdragon, Wolfenstien, Zacktabaar, Based Sheko, Leper Messiah, Expensive Discount, ROBOT, Legendary Phoenix, and others (forgive me if I forgot to mention your name).

Your welcome.

*Note: [n] Will be used for citation purposes. Were n is an integer number indicating were the citation should be in the credits section. It is not multiplying anything just b/c its arbitrary value x units[n] does not mean the value is being multiplied by n just an indication of the citation order.*

Genuinely surprised by the values I was expecting them to be around only 10 or less in comparison to Earth. Guess you can’t really say until you really analyse it huh?

*NO PIXEL SCALING WAS USED IN THIS CALCULATION* As it is not needed at all in any shape, way or form.

*Note to self: I just hope I haven’t forgotten anything out. Since it is bugging me hopefully I will remember it in time. Or someone will point it out.*

*Yes I remembered attack potency & aoe/dc stuff.*

Also to everyone else if you see anything wrong with this calculation or have any problems with it what so far feel free to PM me. Thank you * adios! Peace out.



Now before we start off it is important to remember these are the scans being used and the feat in question is how powerful Freeza’s casual blast was, how much rock was displaced in the process and the speed and strength of the feat.

The feat is on the third scan. Mind you the first two were necessary to give me a better idea of the proportions and speed of the feat.

Scans (courtesy of Mangafox):







Now the stage is set for the reasonable assumptions, and methods we can use to solve this feat.



The method that will be used to determine the mass of the rock displaced will be “Schiehallion experiment”[1] primarily.

More info on it can be found under credits. Along with the values for Earth’s mean density which is: 5515 kg/m^3[2].

Also 100% Freeza is assumed to be capable of going at c read that part of the calc for further information as to why.*In spoiler number 3.*

Also relativistic equations were used and all of the information used can be found on under credits.

Lastly the values I determined for the plateau/land mass was comparing similar images in RL and their dimensions like the Tibet plateau which is in thousands of meters, or take small rocky formations which are only a few meters. Any one can google or wiki these things easily enough.*In spoiler number 5.*



Now to determine the energy of the blast fired by Freeza we will assume that he is at 5% of his power and scale from Saiyan Saga Vegeta’s Galick Gun. Taking the minimum value possible to destroy Earth we will need to use the equation:

[7]

The m is the mass and c is the speed of light.

So the m here is the mass of the Earth which is: 5.97219×10^24 kg[3] or simply 6.0x10^24 kg.

The c=299,792,458 meters per second[4] or 3 x 10^8 m/s

So to find out the power of the Galick Gun we plug in the values to find out the energy required to destroy the Earth.

Ev= (6.0x10^24 kg)(3 x 10^8 m/s)^2= 5.4 x 10^41 J

*J is Joules for energy 1 Joule= 1 kg(m^2/s^2)* 

So now that we know the power of Vegeta’s Galick Gun we will assume he only increased 50% in power and that Reecome is twice as strong then him at that point and that Ginyu is 50% stronger then Reecome. And Freeza is also twice as strong as Ginyu and each transformation of Freeza only makes him 2x as powerful. (If any one thinks these values are too high or too low let me know)

So the multiplier effect in total is: 1(SS Vegeta=Ev)*1.5(BoN=Beginning of Namek,  Vegeta)*2(Reecome)*1.5(Ginyu)*2(Base Freeza)*2(1st Transformation Freeza)*2(2nd Transformation Freeza)*2(Final form Freeza @ 5%)= 72Ev=72(5.4 x 10^41 J)= 3.888x10^43 J rounded to 3.9x10^43 J or about 4.0 x 10^43 J=Ef. 

So now we know the energy behind Freeza’s blast on scan 1. For the speed is a tricky issue since low-relativistic Raditz is a controversial topic. 

I will assume that 100% Freeza= c (LS) (Some of you will feel like this is wank or downplay. I have heard of values between MHS+ to FTL so I will take between the two for now).

And since Freeza is at 5%. His blast’s projectile speed should at least be 1/5 LS or the same as his combat speed in this case. 

So let “S.feb” be known as “Speed of Freeza’s energy blast”. 

Then S.feb=c/5= 299,792,458 m/s/5= 59,958,491.6 m/s or about 6.0x10^7 m/s (from Freeza’s perspective towards Goku; or vice-versa since in this case the distance between them is negligible for all intents and purposes here).

Also I did not use relativity here since I am just determining the Ki blasts' speed not in relation to anything but itself (using simple RL, db and vs logic).

Now we find the relativistic kinetic energy behind it which will be used for calculations further on.

The equation is:

[7]

Since we have already determined E=mc^2. We only need to determine the -m.c^2 part (m. is the mass of Goku here).

Now finding Goku’s mass will be tricky and since various values have been put forth from 62 kg to above 100 kg. Yet the average mass of the person is 70 kg[5]. For Goku I will be treating him as an entry level heavy weight individual which is equal to or above 220 pounds[6]=99.7903 kg about 100kg.

So the E in this case will be;

Eg=(100)(3x10^8 m/s)^2)= 9 x 10^18 J

So the relativistic kinetic energy (rke) is:

E= 4.0x10^43 J - 9x10^18 J= 3.9 x 10^43 J (Rounded down form before, although the difference here is negligible once again).

So now we we know the energy of the blast; the “power” behind it. Which is 3.9 x 10^43 J.



For this we will have to use the relativistic equations for time which is:

[7]

Now before we find Goku’s reaction time we need to find out how quickly the ki blast reached Goku. From the edge of the shore (where Freeza was) to Goku (on the shore). My estimation ranges from 15 to 100 meters. But in this case I will be using 50 meters between Freeza and Goku. And after contact that Goku traveled another 100 meters before hitting the cliff. But for reaction time we only need to find out how fast it took for the ki blast to travel 50 meters.

So the equation is for this is(uploaded by myself after adjusting a much larger version of this from google images):

[7]

Where Lp or L0 is 50 meters. And we are looking for L.

So for something moving at 0.2c (1/5LS). L=0.9797958971132712l0 L0=0.9797958971132712(50m)= 48.98979485566356 m or about 49 meters.

In order to find the reaction time we will need to merge these 2 equations (time dilation & length contraction).

But we know that in one’s own frame of reference L=vt and L0=v0t0.

But since we don’t know either T or T0 we will have to combine the 2 equations to get:

[8]

Were y is gamma or y=(1-v^2/c^2)^1/2

Here we know v=6.0x10^7 m/s and c=3x10^8 m/s

So L=vt0/y. Here now that the equation is simplified we can isolate t0 to find Goku’s reaction time.

L=49 m, v=6.0x10^7m/s & y= (1-0.04)^1/2=0.979795897 or about 0.98

So, t0=(Ly)/v= (49 m*0.98)/(6x10^7m/s)= (48.02/6 x10^7)s= 8.00333...x10^-7 s or about 8x10^-7 s which is about 800 nano seconds [9]. Which is not surprising for relativistic moving characters. Although it is blisteringly fast. I guess this also helps answer one of Legendary Phoenix’s question about reaction speed.

Now calculating Goku’s strength we could go by relativistic mass and use more complex equations. But to simplify it for ourselves we will take this in Goku’s frame of reference. Hence we can calculate it as a strength feat much more easily. Simply by using E=mc^2. In this case the m is unknown and E=3.9 x 10^ 43 J

Then m= E/c^2= 3.9 x 10^ 43 J / 9 x 10^16 m^2/s^2= 4.333...x10^26 kg or about 4.3 x10^26 kg.

Which is about 430 yotta kg (1 yotta kg is 1 x 10^24 kg)[10].

So about 0.43 yotta tons. Mind you that the Earth is 6 x 10^24 kg or in this case Goku with a PL of 3 million (although PL have nothing to do with this ultimately) can lift 4.3x10^26/6x10^24= 71.67 (apx.) Earths. Almost 72 Earths.

chaos.org.uk wrote: Neptune, Saturn and Jupiter have masses 0.103, 0.567 and 1.90 yotta tonnes, respectively. A black hole with a mass of 0.1 yotta tonne would have a diameter of about a light nanosecond (a.k.a. foot) and a temperature of 1.2 mK.



So this also goes to show Goku could lift any planet in our solar system except Jupiter.

To calculate Goku’s durability we have to see with what force he hit the rock cliff with.

The equation for this is:

F=y^3(m0)*(v.(v))[11][12][13]

We know that from before y=(1-v^2/c^2)^1/2.

Were m0 is the rest mass. In this 71.67 Earths since at the point of contact Goku flung it into space (good thing too). Goku’s mass and the cliff’s mass are both negligible as they are not (and will not be) noticeable.

So m0=71.67*6x10^24kg= 4.3x10^26 kg
In this case v.=v since the distance between Goku and Freeza was only 50 m. Although realistically there is a slight difference it doesn’t matter here.

So we can write F as F=y^3(m0)*v^2

Hence, F=(0.98)^3*4.3x10^26 kg*3.6x10^15 m^2/s^2

F= 1.457 x 10^42 N (apx.)

Which is equivalent to many dozens of Earth like planets in a single blow. Let that sink in.

So now we have Goku’s reaction speed: 800 nano seconds, His strength: 71.67 Earths= 4.3 x10^26 kg, and his durability of 1.457 x10^42 N or many dozens of Earth like planets smashing in one hit.




Here I drew the lines corresponding with the dimensions of the land mass. It has nothing to do with pixel scaling and anyone can feel free to check. Here is the image I posted up:



So the width is 300 meters & the length is also 300 meters; and the height is 75 meters. I used other cliff images on google with similar perspective to gauge this. If someone has a more accurate value for this feel free to let me know in this thread or via PM. Thanks.

As said in spoiler number 2 I used low end values so the surface area (sa) of a rectangular prism land mass (ideal conditions) with the dimensions listed before will be;

sa= 2(WH + LW + LH)= 2(300*75 + 300*300 + 300*75)= 2(22,500 + 90,000 + 22,500)=2(135,000)= 270,000 m^2 = 270 km^2

Now you can compare this value with various islands and will find how low balled it really is. It’s even smaller than Rothschild Island which is almost twice as large as this one; using the values I used for it. [14]

Considering its supposedly resembles plateau somewhat as well. I used no value of the sort.[15]

Here I will just calculate the amount of rock mass displaced in the process. Mind you this doesn’t really add anything to Goku’s stats except how much control he has dealing with blasts of energies worth up to 72 Earths. The thing is its an error which is in the 10 millionths; or being able 1,250,000= 1,25 million times accurate enough to not level the cliff while dealing with that much energy; low end numbers. Talk about accuracy.

So we will use the Schiehallion experiment as mentioned very early on.

The crack in the cliff’s dimensions: W=30m ( the crack is about 1/10 of the total width) L=240m (The total length of the cliff is 300 meters but as you can see on panel it it did not go all the way). H=75 m.

So assuming ideal conditions, the volume should be that of a rectangular prism.

Which is: V=lwh= 240*30*75= 540,000 m^3

Now going by mass we have m=dv

m= 5515 kg/m^3*540,000 m^3= 2978100000 kg= 2.9781 x 10 ^ 9 kg or about 3.0 x 10^ 9 kg or 3 billion kg which is 3 million tons.

So the amount of rock (mass) destroyed/displaced in the process is 3 million tons.




I would like to thank many of you but special notice goes to Raniero, Wolfenstein, Zacktabaar, curstdragon, Gangster Broly, ROBOT, expensive-discount, Leper Messiah, etc. your posts and help have been of vital importance. I apologize if I have forgotten to mention anybody.

Links:

[1]:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schiehallion_experiment
[2]&[3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth
[4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light
[5]: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/AlexSchlessingerman.shtml
[6]: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Championship_(professional_wrestling)[/url]
[7]:http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/relativ/relcon.html#relcon
[8]:http://physics.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node79.html
[9]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time
[10]: http://www.chaos.org.uk/~eddy/physics/scale/mass.html
[11]:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_relativistic_equations
[12]:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativistic_mechanics
[13]:http://www.sciencebits.com/node/175
[14]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_islands_by_area#Islands_500.E2.80.931.2C000.C2.A0km2_.28190.E2.80.93390.C2.A0sq.C2.A0mi.29
[15]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_Plateau

Note on conversion: For converting values, units, etc. I used google converter for example lbs to kg and vice-versa; or g/cm^3 to kg/m^3, etc.



1) Goku can extremely casually deal with multiple Earths worth of energy (72 to be exact). He should also be able to out put in dc/aoe (they are the same in this case) the same amount of energy and in kaioken x 20 about 1440 Earths (but only once going by low end values).
2) Has nanosecond reactions easily (800 nanoseconds), low-relativistic, 20% of c.
3) Can lift about 71.67 Earths or any planet in our solar system except Jupiter.
4) Can with stand attacks with 1.457 x10^42 N or about taking a hit which contains dozens of Earth like planets behind it. And you can use the kaioken multipliers to get his for his durability, I don’t think we can apply the same scaling method after Goku turns SSJ though.
5) Goku has accuracy down to the 1-10 millionths in dealing with explosion which would destroy up to 72 Earths.
6) His reaction/combat speed is at least 6 x 10^ 7 m/s (probably more) so that is about mach 176,470.6. Or better put 20% LS/c.
7) Freeza can do all of this at 5%




Split Durability Thread

More on split durability.

Monkey King wrote:

Super Exciting Guide wrote:
Piccolo:
Height: 226 cm
Weight: 116 kg


Daizenshuu wrote: Piccolo enlarges his body to over ten times its normal size.


Giant Piccolo - 10X his normal size
Super Giant Piccolo - >10X his normal size

According to the square cube law, Piccolo’s weight would grown in 3 dimensions.

So 116kg x10 x10 x10 = 116,000kg (116 tons)



The Monkey King wrote:

Toriyama Interview wrote: What was the Galactic Patrol doing when Raditz and then Vegeta were attacking Earth?

Akira: Even though they’re called the Galactic Patrol, they only stand a chance against Saiyans when they’re children, and the Extinction Bomb doesn’t work on them. Naturally, they have no choice but to turn a blind eye to people like Freeza.


http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/v-jump-december-2013-akira-toriyama/

Galactic Patrolmen >=< Average saiyan child.

So here are some Jaco feats:








Remember this guy would bearly be a match for a saiyan child lol


__________________

Moderated 08-28-2014 04:37 PM by Raniero
[Reply] #2
06-16-2012 01:30 AM
Joined: 01-07-2011
Posts: 4,703
offline
juniorsworld
juniorsworld
UBER 1337 Poster
Rep: 91

The strongest in Anime DBZ is low universal level.
The strongest in manga DBZ is what should be debated.


__________________

[Reply] #3
06-16-2012 01:31 AM
Joined: 10-10-2011
Posts: 17,023
offline
The Millennium King
The Millennium King
Zeed
Rep: 215

Lmao at anyone in DBZ being universal level.

:L


__________________


”“We may not see our next step
We may stumble, we may fall off the path. But we always move forward!
That is the power of man!'“

[Reply] #4
06-16-2012 01:32 AM
Joined: 05-29-2012
Posts: 7,739
offline
The Merchant
The Merchant
Sith Lord
Rep: 93

Personally, the dimension collapsing feat of Super Buuhann should be unquantifiable, we don’t know how tough the dimensional walls holding up the universe is. If you count DBO, a final battle Goku and Vegeta caused a supernova.

EDIT: DBO is canon, the story elements where written by Akira and is approved by him as the official continuation of the DBZ anime and manga.


__________________

Edited 06-16-2012 01:34 AM by The Merchant
[Reply] #5
06-16-2012 01:34 AM
Joined: 01-01-2010
Posts: 2,428
offline
zeedmillenniummon
zeedmillenniummon
UBER 1337 Poster
Rep: 50

this wont end well...


__________________

[Reply] #6
06-16-2012 01:35 AM
Joined: 05-24-2012
Posts: 5,300
offline
Helios
Helios
Eyes Like Ice~
Rep: 117

juniorsworld wrote: The strongest in Anime DBZ is low universal level.
The strongest in manga DBZ is what should be debated.



Universal threat via chain reaction which only Buuhan has seen to be able to do.


__________________

[Reply] #7
06-16-2012 01:35 AM
Joined: 05-29-2012
Posts: 7,739
offline
The Merchant
The Merchant
Sith Lord
Rep: 93

.Bored. wrote:

juniorsworld wrote: The strongest in Anime DBZ is low universal level.
The strongest in manga DBZ is what should be debated.



Universal threat via chain reaction which only Buuhan has seen to be able to do.



Not to mention unquantifiable.


__________________

[Reply] #8
06-16-2012 01:37 AM
Joined: 05-24-2012
Posts: 5,300
offline
Helios
Helios
Eyes Like Ice~
Rep: 117

return wrote:

.Bored. wrote:

juniorsworld wrote: The strongest in Anime DBZ is low universal level.
The strongest in manga DBZ is what should be debated.



Universal threat via chain reaction which only Buuhan has seen to be able to do.



Not to mention unquantifiable.



Some people will argue against that. I agree though.


__________________

[Reply] #9
06-16-2012 01:38 AM
Joined: 11-02-2006
Posts: 9,976
offline
Tippership Commander
Tippership Commander
The Last of the T's of Legend.....
Rep: 231

i am posting some of my old arguments from various threads - about how I view DBZ characters as roughly..I guess, average mid-tier? I don’t know hwo to put it, because they don’t average out- they’re Herald level with their firepower and due to the attributes of ki, making them Wave Motion Gunners in person(ya ya, sue me, I used a trope. Too bad. ). Other than that, their stats I dont feel are quite that high in other categories. However, they do go a bit far on their firepower- but are ALWAYS circumstantial.

I am aware it’s not a common viewpoint.

Tippership Commander wrote:

Vile wrote: What was Goku considered power-wise after he merged with the Dragon balls, or are we not including that version? I mean, that alone would allow him to just revive himself after death even if he did die. (Joking about that partially).

Granted I know little about Bill here, so would someone mind filling me in? A friend tells me he is cosmic to some degree.

(Trying to read up on him now).



I don’t get into these often- But I’ll give my opinion

BRB is extremely close to Thor - they are see nas Equals. BRB has had some recent decent feats against some heralds of Galactus.


Which puts him at the High Herald level about.


Now, I am part of the camp that feels a high herald would deal with most DBZ/GT characters decently...Perhaps not with ease though.

The reason we feel that way is because the poewrscaling argument I see so often, does not hold up too well.

Nevertheless, I imagine this is actually similar to how I would analyse Thor vs Goku..

Let’s see..

GT Goku’s (i’m throwing out the Dragonballs issue- I mean, its all speculative, there)
got decent durability- at Super Saiyan 4 is when he starts having som decent Durability feats

Other than that, he is basically a DBZ char- and DBZ chars in my own eyes aren’t Herald level in Speed necessairly, or strength(although I can see a case for them somewhat having low-herald stats)- but what is interesting about DBZ/GT is their power output. They can trigger planets to blow up....at their best.

They are wave motion gunners, with melee skills and the rapidmovement that makes them hard to combat in a lot of situations in fiction.


Their durability is not too great, but it’s subjective, as they survive the said wave motion guns.


Against BRB- I’m superimposing Thor here, and apologize to BRB fans..

LEts use SS4 Goku- He has Instant Transmission, a Technique which CAN be reacted to(Super 17 showed this)- yet, if you’re not used to suddenly countering this, it can be nasty.

melee-DBZ chars can melee fast- I would say a minor superspeed variant- this is bad unless you focus on using your own superspeed factor..

Anyway, in a blasting fight...I don’t know how to call this....I’ll mention Goku has the advantage of having been in beamfights....but he needs to really hammer BRB ...


Speed-I have a suspicion BRB is faster- but Goku is more likely to use his own speed as part of most of his combat moves...

durability...SSj4 Goku can take a beating, but beat him up right, and he’ll be suffering...

Techniques- I’m not suitable to call it here, but Goku’s got versatility like Solar Flare

Range...BRB can go into Space, Goku is in trouble, as BRB can go into enviroments he cant. He can also knock him into Space/into the Earth deep....

Okay, for some real imput: What seperates GT Goku from DBZ Goku- he’s a kid, and some of his abilities are hard to use in weaker forms.

Against any High herald, I have noted a Saiyan who can transform may have an advantage in that, if he is grappling and transforms- it doesn’t matter if the Herald is MASSIVELY stronger- they have to be ready to adjust to a X50 increase, otherwise that’ll knock them back, allowing the Saiyan to bring some offense to bear....


Beta Ray Bill has the absolutes for his own abilities- at a high enough range that I consider him a solid victor- however, I always note that in any battle that’s not too far one sided, it’s anyone’s game.

Goku’s issue is that some hits from BRB will be seriously hurting him. He needs to try to make usage of his Ki Blasting abiltiies to win a blasting fight. He needs to aviod his hammer, and needs to make massive use of the speed he has. A coupel of 10X Kamehamehas will buy him some time...Basically hit and run- but Goku wears down, he can’t keep fighting for days like High Heralds. Therefore he really really needs to play it smart/annoy BRB. Goku’s actually good at psych warfare sometimes, so he could pull off knocking around BRb. As for finishing him off, I don’t see it....but he can get what I consider a win by really playing it smart.

The big problem is he doesn’t know what BRB can do- and that’ll cost him when BRB pulls out his tricks.



I’d rather not get into a argument over this, as I am not a fan of debating with DBZ characters involved......(Last major fight I was in involved Goku and Vegeta and DBZ allies against guys like Super Sonic, Thanos with HOTU/IG, all of DC and MArvel- and the DBZ fans were coming in by the dozens)..so I’ll take my leave here.


I suspect a few select DBZ supporters do understand where their opponents are coming form though. Not a lot, however.

:vanishes:



Tippership Commander wrote: Allright, I’ll give a serious answer- despite my gut telling me I should stick to my usual course of staying out of these.

I am someone who feels Heralds are beyond DBZ characters generally, but for this question


...Frieza in Marvel, lets see-

Rapid movement- that abilitity alone lets him do a lot of damage, however those with a not too bad superspeed factor can surpass it. However, Frieza has very good durability- and can be knocked around. I call being sliced in half not really durability per se, but anyways


Strength- nothing too special, but enough to send beings flying and through mountains......this isn’t Herald level strength, but it’s past the point where he can attempt to fistfight a LOT of beings above his strength class


his PK/TK is decent...

Finally, his Energy Projection- I really don’t have an opinion on the early frieza showing, as we’re not sure of the planet size that he did in “base form”

Oh, by the way ,the transformations in DBZ can’t properly mean much in comic terms- depending on the character. Frieza’s transformations don’t do much for his basic attributes but unlock more of his abilities- this is highly irrelevant against comic characters, i’m serious.

Even from a fan’s point of view, he either is far ahead of them, or massively under- his transformations dont cover enough of a gap, because all of his forms are too close. In flat attributing, that is.

ENERGY projection- he can output enough to trigger planet cores to detonate....

He can cause small islands/parts of land to be destroyed- large explosions..

Now this, category alone, probably fits into the Low herald category - perhaps mid, depending on who you call a herald, and low herald.

However, the rest of his attributes aren’t in the Herald class.

Then again, they don’t have to be- his combination of abilities makes him a massive threat.


I don’t know what the levels are today below low herald- meta? Because I’m pretty sure his speed + durability puts him a bit past Meta.

His destructive power enters herald range, as do all later on DBZ chars....


But honestly, he is a DBZ character- and DBZ specializes in energy projection/triggering planets blowing up. Wave Motion Gunners, basically.



Now, specifically? Who knows. He does not regenerate, and is not Juggernaut in durability. But he still takes a beating that through get put through generally, and so on.

His Energy Projection can be shaped but is still limited by the fact he outputs Ki. Despite that, he still is very good at this.

Depends on which of his attributes you classify him as. He’s not a full herald, but he is not 100% in the lower categories.

His whole arsenel of powers,the output he can generate on the higher levels of Ki blasts, combined with the way he uses them and his brains though, makes him quite effective against those under him, and against those above him, he is able to put up a fight, and against some, escape.
These are my thoughts on this- now you know what a (Comic supporter, is it these days?) /have the opposite side’s point of view.

:/

-----------------------------------------------TC
PS: If you think he’s street level- his rapid movement could be used to do far too much, plus his blasts are a bit too destructive high end. If you think he’s a solid mid/true herald, you’ll see he doesn’t measure up in the total high-end feats such as durability(although this is tricky), and speed. If you think he is skyfather- he lacks capability.

If you think he is a abstract....Again, what capability? what far potential?

IF you think he is nigh- then I give up, as I doub’t I’ll ever change anyone’s mind.

I do look at things objectively though.


__________________

Edited 06-16-2012 01:40 AM by Tippership Commander
[Reply] #10
06-16-2012 01:41 AM
Joined: 10-10-2011
Posts: 17,023
offline
The Millennium King
The Millennium King
Zeed
Rep: 215

Tippership Commander wrote: i am posting some of my old arguments from various threads - about how I view DBZ characters.
I am aware it’s not a common viewpoint.

Tippership Commander wrote:

Vile wrote: What was Goku considered power-wise after he merged with the Dragon balls, or are we not including that version? I mean, that alone would allow him to just revive himself after death even if he did die. (Joking about that partially).

Granted I know little about Bill here, so would someone mind filling me in? A friend tells me he is cosmic to some degree.

(Trying to read up on him now).



I don’t get into these often- But I’ll give my opinion

BRB is extremely close to Thor - they are see nas Equals. BRB has had some recent decent feats against some heralds of Galactus.


Which puts him at the High Herald level about.


Now, I am part of the camp that feels a high herald would deal with most DBZ/GT characters decently...Perhaps not with ease though.

The reason we feel that way is because the poewrscaling argument I see so often, does not hold up too well.

Nevertheless, I imagine this is actually similar to how I would analyse Thor vs Goku..

Let’s see..

GT Goku’s (i’m throwing out the Dragonballs issue- I mean, its all speculative, there)
got decent durability- at Super Saiyan 4 is when he starts having som decent Durability feats

Other than that, he is basically a DBZ char- and DBZ chars in my own eyes aren’t Herald level in Speed necessairly, or strength(although I can see a case for them somewhat having low-herald stats)- but what is interesting about DBZ/GT is their power output. They can trigger planets to blow up....at their best.

They are wave motion gunners, with melee skills and the rapidmovement that makes them hard to combat in a lot of situations in fiction.


Their durability is not too great, but it’s subjective, as they survive the said wave motion guns.


Against BRB- I’m superimposing Thor here, and apologize to BRB fans..

LEts use SS4 Goku- He has Instant Transmission, a Technique which CAN be reacted to(Super 17 showed this)- yet, if you’re not used to suddenly countering this, it can be nasty.

melee-DBZ chars can melee fast- I would say a minor superspeed variant- this is bad unless you focus on using your own superspeed factor..

Anyway, in a blasting fight...I don’t know how to call this....I’ll mention Goku has the advantage of having been in beamfights....but he needs to really hammer BRB ...


Speed-I have a suspicion BRB is faster- but Goku is more likely to use his own speed as part of most of his combat moves...

durability...SSj4 Goku can take a beating, but beat him up right, and he’ll be suffering...

Techniques- I’m not suitable to call it here, but Goku’s got versatility like Solar Flare

Range...BRB can go into Space, Goku is in trouble, as BRB can go into enviroments he cant. He can also knock him into Space/into the Earth deep....

Okay, for some real imput: What seperates GT Goku from DBZ Goku- he’s a kid, and some of his abilities are hard to use in weaker forms.

Against any High herald, I have noted a Saiyan who can transform may have an advantage in that, if he is grappling and transforms- it doesn’t matter if the Herald is MASSIVELY stronger- they have to be ready to adjust to a X50 increase, otherwise that’ll knock them back, allowing the Saiyan to bring some offense to bear....


Beta Ray Bill has the absolutes for his own abilities- at a high enough range that I consider him a solid victor- however, I always note that in any battle that’s not too far one sided, it’s anyone’s game.

Goku’s issue is that some hits from BRB will be seriously hurting him. He needs to try to make usage of his Ki Blasting abiltiies to win a blasting fight. He needs to aviod his hammer, and needs to make massive use of the speed he has. A coupel of 10X Kamehamehas will buy him some time...Basically hit and run- but Goku wears down, he can’t keep fighting for days like High Heralds. Therefore he really really needs to play it smart/annoy BRB. Goku’s actually good at psych warfare sometimes, so he could pull off knocking around BRb. As for finishing him off, I don’t see it....but he can get what I consider a win by really playing it smart.

The big problem is he doesn’t know what BRB can do- and that’ll cost him when BRB pulls out his tricks.



I’d rather not get into a argument over this, as I am not a fan of debating with DBZ characters involved......(Last major fight I was in involved Goku and Vegeta and DBZ allies against guys like Super Sonic, Thanos with HOTU/IG, all of DC and MArvel- and the DBZ fans were coming in by the dozens)..so I’ll take my leave here.


I suspect a few select DBZ supporters do understand where their opponents are coming form though. Not a lot, however.

:vanishes:



Tippership Commander wrote: Allright, I’ll give a serious answer- despite my gut telling me I should stick to my usual course of staying out of these.

I am someone who feels Heralds are beyond DBZ characters generally, but for this question


...Frieza in Marvel, lets see-

Rapid movement- that abilitity alone lets him do a lot of damage, however those with a not too bad superspeed factor can surpass it. However, Frieza has very good durability- and can be knocked around. I call being sliced in half not really durability per se, but anyways


Strength- nothing too special, but enough to send beings flying and through mountains......this isn’t Herald level strength, but it’s past the point where he can attempt to fistfight a LOT of beings above his strength class


his PK/TK is decent...

Finally, his Energy Projection- I really don’t have an opinion on the early frieza showing, as we’re not sure of the planet size that he did in “base form”

Oh, by the way ,the transformations in DBZ can’t properly mean much in comic terms- depending on the character. Frieza’s transformations don’t do much for his basic attributes but unlock more of his abilities- this is highly irrelevant against comic characters, i’m serious.

Even from a fan’s point of view, he either is far ahead of them, or massively under- his transformations dont cover enough of a gap, because all of his forms are too close. In flat attributing, that is.

ENERGY projection- he can output enough to trigger planet cores to detonate....

He can cause small islands/parts of land to be destroyed- large explosions..

Now this, category alone, probably fits into the Low herald category - perhaps mid, depending on who you call a herald, and low herald.

However, the rest of his attributes aren’t in the Herald class.

Then again, they don’t have to be- his combination of abilities makes him a massive threat.


I don’t know what the levels are today below low herald- meta? Because I’m pretty sure his speed + durability puts him a bit past Meta.

His destructive power enters herald range, as do all later on DBZ chars....


But honestly, he is a DBZ character- and DBZ specializes in energy projection/triggering planets blowing up. Wave Motion Gunners, basically.



Now, specifically? Who knows. He does not regenerate, and is not Juggernaut in durability. But he still takes a beating that through get put through generally, and so on.

His Energy Projection can be shaped but is still limited by the fact he outputs Ki. Despite that, he still is very good at this.

Depends on which of his attributes you classify him as. He’s not a full herald, but he is not 100% in the lower categories.

His whole arsenel of powers,the output he can generate on the higher levels of Ki blasts, combined with the way he uses them and his brains though, makes him quite effective against those under him, and against those above him, he is able to put up a fight, and against some, escape.
These are my thoughts on this- now you know what a (Comic supporter, is it these days?) /have the opposite side’s point of view.

:/

-----------------------------------------------TC
PS: If you think he’s street level- his rapid movement could be used to do far too much, plus his blasts are a bit too destructive high end. If you think he’s a solid mid/true herald, you’ll see he doesn’t measure up in the total high-end feats such as durability(although this is tricky), and speed. If you think he is skyfather- he lacks capability.

If you think he is a abstract....Again, what capability? what far potential?

IF you think he is nigh- then I give up, as I doub’t I’ll ever change anyone’s mind.

I do look at things objectively though.



Oh wow.. A detailed way of summing things up..


__________________


”“We may not see our next step
We may stumble, we may fall off the path. But we always move forward!
That is the power of man!'“

[Reply] #11
06-16-2012 01:42 AM
Joined: 05-29-2012
Posts: 7,739
offline
The Merchant
The Merchant
Sith Lord
Rep: 93

Tippership Commander wrote: i am posting some of my old arguments from various threads - about how I view DBZ characters as roughly..I guess, average mid-tier? I don’t know hwo to put it, because they don’t average out- they’re Herald level with their firepower and due to the attributes of ki, making them Wave Motion Gunners in person(ya ya, sue me, I used a trope. Too bad. ). Other than that, their stats I dont feel are quite that high in other categories. However, they do go a bit far on their firepower- but are ALWAYS circumstantial.

I am aware it’s not a common viewpoint.

Tippership Commander wrote:

Vile wrote: What was Goku considered power-wise after he merged with the Dragon balls, or are we not including that version? I mean, that alone would allow him to just revive himself after death even if he did die. (Joking about that partially).

Granted I know little about Bill here, so would someone mind filling me in? A friend tells me he is cosmic to some degree.

(Trying to read up on him now).



I don’t get into these often- But I’ll give my opinion

BRB is extremely close to Thor - they are see nas Equals. BRB has had some recent decent feats against some heralds of Galactus.


Which puts him at the High Herald level about.


Now, I am part of the camp that feels a high herald would deal with most DBZ/GT characters decently...Perhaps not with ease though.

The reason we feel that way is because the poewrscaling argument I see so often, does not hold up too well.

Nevertheless, I imagine this is actually similar to how I would analyse Thor vs Goku..

Let’s see..

GT Goku’s (i’m throwing out the Dragonballs issue- I mean, its all speculative, there)
got decent durability- at Super Saiyan 4 is when he starts having som decent Durability feats

Other than that, he is basically a DBZ char- and DBZ chars in my own eyes aren’t Herald level in Speed necessairly, or strength(although I can see a case for them somewhat having low-herald stats)- but what is interesting about DBZ/GT is their power output. They can trigger planets to blow up....at their best.

They are wave motion gunners, with melee skills and the rapidmovement that makes them hard to combat in a lot of situations in fiction.


Their durability is not too great, but it’s subjective, as they survive the said wave motion guns.


Against BRB- I’m superimposing Thor here, and apologize to BRB fans..

LEts use SS4 Goku- He has Instant Transmission, a Technique which CAN be reacted to(Super 17 showed this)- yet, if you’re not used to suddenly countering this, it can be nasty.

melee-DBZ chars can melee fast- I would say a minor superspeed variant- this is bad unless you focus on using your own superspeed factor..

Anyway, in a blasting fight...I don’t know how to call this....I’ll mention Goku has the advantage of having been in beamfights....but he needs to really hammer BRB ...


Speed-I have a suspicion BRB is faster- but Goku is more likely to use his own speed as part of most of his combat moves...

durability...SSj4 Goku can take a beating, but beat him up right, and he’ll be suffering...

Techniques- I’m not suitable to call it here, but Goku’s got versatility like Solar Flare

Range...BRB can go into Space, Goku is in trouble, as BRB can go into enviroments he cant. He can also knock him into Space/into the Earth deep....

Okay, for some real imput: What seperates GT Goku from DBZ Goku- he’s a kid, and some of his abilities are hard to use in weaker forms.

Against any High herald, I have noted a Saiyan who can transform may have an advantage in that, if he is grappling and transforms- it doesn’t matter if the Herald is MASSIVELY stronger- they have to be ready to adjust to a X50 increase, otherwise that’ll knock them back, allowing the Saiyan to bring some offense to bear....


Beta Ray Bill has the absolutes for his own abilities- at a high enough range that I consider him a solid victor- however, I always note that in any battle that’s not too far one sided, it’s anyone’s game.

Goku’s issue is that some hits from BRB will be seriously hurting him. He needs to try to make usage of his Ki Blasting abiltiies to win a blasting fight. He needs to aviod his hammer, and needs to make massive use of the speed he has. A coupel of 10X Kamehamehas will buy him some time...Basically hit and run- but Goku wears down, he can’t keep fighting for days like High Heralds. Therefore he really really needs to play it smart/annoy BRB. Goku’s actually good at psych warfare sometimes, so he could pull off knocking around BRb. As for finishing him off, I don’t see it....but he can get what I consider a win by really playing it smart.

The big problem is he doesn’t know what BRB can do- and that’ll cost him when BRB pulls out his tricks.



I’d rather not get into a argument over this, as I am not a fan of debating with DBZ characters involved......(Last major fight I was in involved Goku and Vegeta and DBZ allies against guys like Super Sonic, Thanos with HOTU/IG, all of DC and MArvel- and the DBZ fans were coming in by the dozens)..so I’ll take my leave here.


I suspect a few select DBZ supporters do understand where their opponents are coming form though. Not a lot, however.

:vanishes:



Tippership Commander wrote: Allright, I’ll give a serious answer- despite my gut telling me I should stick to my usual course of staying out of these.

I am someone who feels Heralds are beyond DBZ characters generally, but for this question


...Frieza in Marvel, lets see-

Rapid movement- that abilitity alone lets him do a lot of damage, however those with a not too bad superspeed factor can surpass it. However, Frieza has very good durability- and can be knocked around. I call being sliced in half not really durability per se, but anyways


Strength- nothing too special, but enough to send beings flying and through mountains......this isn’t Herald level strength, but it’s past the point where he can attempt to fistfight a LOT of beings above his strength class


his PK/TK is decent...

Finally, his Energy Projection- I really don’t have an opinion on the early frieza showing, as we’re not sure of the planet size that he did in “base form”

Oh, by the way ,the transformations in DBZ can’t properly mean much in comic terms- depending on the character. Frieza’s transformations don’t do much for his basic attributes but unlock more of his abilities- this is highly irrelevant against comic characters, i’m serious.

Even from a fan’s point of view, he either is far ahead of them, or massively under- his transformations dont cover enough of a gap, because all of his forms are too close. In flat attributing, that is.

ENERGY projection- he can output enough to trigger planet cores to detonate....

He can cause small islands/parts of land to be destroyed- large explosions..

Now this, category alone, probably fits into the Low herald category - perhaps mid, depending on who you call a herald, and low herald.

However, the rest of his attributes aren’t in the Herald class.

Then again, they don’t have to be- his combination of abilities makes him a massive threat.


I don’t know what the levels are today below low herald- meta? Because I’m pretty sure his speed + durability puts him a bit past Meta.

His destructive power enters herald range, as do all later on DBZ chars....


But honestly, he is a DBZ character- and DBZ specializes in energy projection/triggering planets blowing up. Wave Motion Gunners, basically.



Now, specifically? Who knows. He does not regenerate, and is not Juggernaut in durability. But he still takes a beating that through get put through generally, and so on.

His Energy Projection can be shaped but is still limited by the fact he outputs Ki. Despite that, he still is very good at this.

Depends on which of his attributes you classify him as. He’s not a full herald, but he is not 100% in the lower categories.

His whole arsenel of powers,the output he can generate on the higher levels of Ki blasts, combined with the way he uses them and his brains though, makes him quite effective against those under him, and against those above him, he is able to put up a fight, and against some, escape.
These are my thoughts on this- now you know what a (Comic supporter, is it these days?) /have the opposite side’s point of view.

:/

-----------------------------------------------TC
PS: If you think he’s street level- his rapid movement could be used to do far too much, plus his blasts are a bit too destructive high end. If you think he’s a solid mid/true herald, you’ll see he doesn’t measure up in the total high-end feats such as durability(although this is tricky), and speed. If you think he is skyfather- he lacks capability.

If you think he is a abstract....Again, what capability? what far potential?

IF you think he is nigh- then I give up, as I doub’t I’ll ever change anyone’s mind.

I do look at things objectively though.



Huh, you put them lower than I thought. I put them at high-transcendent with the DBO feat, without it I say in between high-herald, to the highest mid-transcendent. This is including GT, BTW.
Also, many would argue that characters like SS don’t have good combat feats, which gives DBZ an edge. As for Goku with the DB’s, I say that all it did was give him a boost just like it did with syn shenron when he turned to omega shenron, I don’t see where people are saying he gets God like wishing abilities with it.


__________________

Edited 06-16-2012 01:45 AM by The Merchant
[Reply] #12
06-16-2012 01:43 AM
Joined: 01-07-2011
Posts: 4,703
offline
juniorsworld
juniorsworld
UBER 1337 Poster
Rep: 91

.Bored. wrote:

juniorsworld wrote: The strongest in Anime DBZ is low universal level.
The strongest in manga DBZ is what should be debated.



Universal threat via chain reaction which only Buuhan has seen to be able to do.



Not Buuhan, Vegito. But yeah, it’s still a pretty low universal feat.

@Millenium King and the rest
It doesn’t matter if moving dimensions is unquantifiable. Overall, Dende and Vegito mentioned Buuhan was going to destroy the universe by “crashing” dimensions into it. Universe is the key word here. Even if it’s quick or not, a one shot or a chain reaction, it’s still a universal feat, albeit, trash tier.


__________________

[Reply] #13
06-16-2012 01:45 AM
Joined: 05-26-2009
Posts: 8,373
offline
DFO Zealot
DFO Zealot
Dungeon Fighter Online Lives
Rep: 97

I’m gonna start with Frieza.

First of all, what Non-Herald Marvel character’s are capable of moon, continent, mountain busting, or life wiping a planet?

Let’s start there, and then I’ll continue.


__________________


Visit my userpage for more DFO game info.

[Reply] #14
06-16-2012 01:45 AM
Joined: 10-10-2011
Posts: 17,023
offline
The Millennium King
The Millennium King
Zeed
Rep: 215

juniorsworld wrote:

.Bored. wrote:

juniorsworld wrote: The strongest in Anime DBZ is low universal level.
The strongest in manga DBZ is what should be debated.



Universal threat via chain reaction which only Buuhan has seen to be able to do.



Not Buuhan, Vegito. But yeah, it’s still a pretty low universal feat.

@Millenium King and the rest
It doesn’t matter if moving dimensions is unquantifiable. Overall, Dende and Vegito mentioned Buuhan was going to destroy the universe by “crashing” dimensions into it. Universe is the key word here. Even if it’s quick or not, a one shot or a chain reaction, it’s still a universal feat, albeit, trash tier.



And yet they never show anything above destroying planets.

Yet somehow their universe busters.

Hmm.. No way are they going to be 'universal'.


__________________


”“We may not see our next step
We may stumble, we may fall off the path. But we always move forward!
That is the power of man!'“

[Reply] #15
06-16-2012 01:46 AM
Carter lokes
Guest

Only DBZ
Movie: Janemba;multiversal.SSJ 3 Goku; multiversal
Anime: Kid Buu; galaxy, Buuhan; Was going to collapse an infinite universe. Vegito; stronger than Buuhan.
manga; Vegito; galaxy

[Reply] #16
06-16-2012 01:46 AM
Joined: 10-10-2011
Posts: 17,023
offline
The Millennium King
The Millennium King
Zeed
Rep: 215

GodHandZaWarudo wrote: I’m gonna start with Frieza.

First of all, what Non-Herald Marvel character’s are capable of moon, continent, mountain busting, or life wiping a planet?

Let’s start there, and then I’ll continue.



And here we go.. Lmao.


__________________


”“We may not see our next step
We may stumble, we may fall off the path. But we always move forward!
That is the power of man!'“

[Reply] #17
06-16-2012 01:47 AM
Omnielectric
Guest

GodHandZaWarudo wrote: I’m gonna start with Frieza.

First of all, what Non-Herald Marvel character’s are capable of moon, continent, mountain busting, or life wiping a planet?

Let’s start there, and then I’ll continue.




http://lounge.moviecodec.com/vs-forum/goku-and-vegeta-vs-thanos-odin-phoenix-galactus-anti-monitor-sonic-shadow-90910/

[Reply] #18
06-16-2012 01:47 AM
Joined: 05-29-2012
Posts: 7,739
offline
The Merchant
The Merchant
Sith Lord
Rep: 93

juniorsworld wrote:

.Bored. wrote:

juniorsworld wrote: The strongest in Anime DBZ is low universal level.
The strongest in manga DBZ is what should be debated.



Universal threat via chain reaction which only Buuhan has seen to be able to do.



Not Buuhan, Vegito. But yeah, it’s still a pretty low universal feat.

@Millenium King and the rest
It doesn’t matter if moving dimensions is unquantifiable. Overall, Dende and Vegito mentioned Buuhan was going to destroy the universe by “crashing” dimensions into it. Universe is the key word here. Even if it’s quick or not, a one shot or a chain reaction, it’s still a universal feat, albeit, trash tier.



Actually Dende said that he was collapsing the dimensional walls holding up the universe, and it is done in a certain way, kind of like a technique. In raw power, like ki blasts, Super buuhann and Vegito could only cause a supernova level blast, seeing as how DBO Goku and Vegeta caused a supernova at their final battle.


__________________

[Reply] #19
06-16-2012 01:48 AM
Joined: 01-07-2011
Posts: 4,703
offline
juniorsworld
juniorsworld
UBER 1337 Poster
Rep: 91

The Millennium King wrote:

juniorsworld wrote:

.Bored. wrote:

juniorsworld wrote: The strongest in Anime DBZ is low universal level.
The strongest in manga DBZ is what should be debated.



Universal threat via chain reaction which only Buuhan has seen to be able to do.



Not Buuhan, Vegito. But yeah, it’s still a pretty low universal feat.

@Millenium King and the rest
It doesn’t matter if moving dimensions is unquantifiable. Overall, Dende and Vegito mentioned Buuhan was going to destroy the universe by “crashing” dimensions into it. Universe is the key word here. Even if it’s quick or not, a one shot or a chain reaction, it’s still a universal feat, albeit, trash tier.



And yet they never show anything above destroying planets.

Yet somehow their universe busters.

Hmm.. No way are they going to be 'universal'.



Strong strawman.

When did I say they are universe busters? Bust means one shot, so essentially, one shot a universe. When did I say that, because I doubt they can do that?

Plus, I’m only talking about the two top tiers, Vegito and Buuhan. You act like I’m talking about the whole verse.

What’s not to get? Universe is the key word Dende and Vegito mentioned. Busting is a different topic on all its own. Overall, Buuhan was going to eventually destroy a UNIVERSE. It’s simple. He’s a trash tier universal OVERALL.


__________________

[Reply] #20
06-16-2012 01:49 AM
Joined: 05-29-2012
Posts: 7,739
offline
The Merchant
The Merchant
Sith Lord
Rep: 93

GodHandZaWarudo wrote: I’m gonna start with Frieza.

First of all, what Non-Herald Marvel character’s are capable of moon, continent, mountain busting, or life wiping a planet?

Let’s start there, and then I’ll continue.



Black Bolt can. I think he can destroy solar systems with a full scream.


__________________

[1] 2 3 4 Next > Last >>

New Reply
Name (guest):

For faster posting and no restrictions: [Login] [Register]

Message:


 
 

[More Options] [New Topic]
Moderated by: Phobetius, Zeroextra, znjfl, The Ancient Apocalypse, Hanbei, - FS -, Admins, Superusers [All moderators]
The Lounge Forums ©Silicon.dk ApS 2012 - Privacy Policy - Disclaimer - FAQ - Contact