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Vegeta is a better father than Goku

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[Reply] #21
01-02-2013 02:57 PM
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Sekundes wrote:

gojira4life wrote:

Sekundes wrote:

Edgar.... wrote: Vageta never held trunks, vegeta even knew he was shit...

Hes a dead beat by societies eyes, Goku had many reasons to leave his family, because of saving the world/Etc.

Vegeta did things out of pride and power.....



Goku never held Goten either.(In fact they both held their sons for the first time that saga) There is also the fact Vegeta still encouraged Trunks. Maybe he never held him or said “I love you” until that point. But I never heard Goku say those things either to his sons. At least I don’t recall as such. Even Raditz was regretting he might have to kill Gohan(His nephew he didn’t even know existed). Goku didn’t flinch sending his son in to a life or death situation against Cell or Majin Buu. :I He even let them die to buu and didn’t flinch.

Also, never holding your kid is not nearly as bad telling them “The entire universe’s fate is in your hands. Go fight the monster I couldn’t beat son. Also I’m going to give him a senzu bean to bring him back to full power. Oh and he is going to get stronger since he has saiyan cells” Vegeta regretted never holding his son. Which is why he gave that whole speech. His sacrifice was literally making up for all that time he wasn’t exactly loving to his son. And he did all this knowing he was going to hell. He put his pride to the side. He did something for the whole world.

Vegeta did things out of pride and power. Yet he changed the most over the course of the series and while his actions were not always the nicest he got things done. He also has a good reason for being like he was. Also goku killed 1/10 of the earth’s population and didn’t flinch in the Buu saga. Vegeta blew up a hundred people. Maybe. Vegeta’s problem in the buu saga was anger, and he got over that by saying Goku was better than him for it. But that doesn’t mean that Goku is the better father.

gojira4life wrote: Goku is a good father, he went through hell to save Gohan many times.
Goku leaving his family was under 2 options: he died to save his loved ones and the Earth or he wanted to train someone to one day take over his role as guardian of the Earth.
The more people to defend the Earth, the better, and Uub was someone who’s potential already puts him at the top tiers in the world. Not training him would have been a massive mistake.
Goku put priority above emotions and thus makes him a model of society.


> Model of society
> Blows away 1/10th the population of earth



Wait what? When did that happen?




He knocked Buu’s attack away. Rather than kick it in to space or something he decided to let 1/10th the population die. And he doesn’t care. He even seems kind of excited about how Buu is a genius. No anger. I’d imagine odds are that some of those people have been brought back once already too. So they can’t just dragonball them. And Namek’s Dragonballs can only bring back one person at a time.



Yes but it highly depends on the Wish I think.
I think the way the people were killed matters.
For example, when the people of Earth were killed by Cell, they used a wish to wish back all those killed by Cell.
When people were on the day of the World Martial Arts Tournament they were brought back with the wish to bring back those killed at that moment who were good.
I think the wishes can be granted again if the way you ask the wish is different enough.
The whole world was wished back to life during the Kid Buu arc, this would include the people who were killed once before like Tien, Chiaotzu and Roshi.

I think knows he can revive them and that damaging the Earth at that moment couldn’t have been taken into account too much.
I agree that deflecting the attack into space would have been a better idea but perhaps Toriyama had reasons for that.

Edited 01-02-2013 02:59 PM by gojira4life
[Reply] #22
01-02-2013 03:01 PM
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MST3K wrote:

gojira4life wrote:

MST3K wrote:

gojira4life wrote:

MST3K wrote: say what you want about Vegeta he never hit his kid (unless they were training)



It’s the equivalent of slapping someone out of their hysteria.



what he couldn’t just restrain him and talk him down?

even in base the difference in their power would be equivalent to First Form Frieza and Monster Zarbon



Sometimes the hard way is the best way since it knocks the person’s agitated emotions down.
When Gohan wanted to save Piccolo from Cell, he was too weak to win.
His concern for Piccolo blocked his judgement and Goku knows how much Gohan cares for Piccolo. He knows words won’t go through him right away so a punch was the way to knock Gohan back to his senses, as if to say “I won’t let you go get illed, even if I have to knock you down myself”.


so if Chi-Chi dies of old age and Gohan becomes depressed is Goku going to punch him again?

i don’t see how restraining him and talking him down would be anymore different



Of course not, that would be stupid. Chi-Chi dying would be natural, Gohan being depressed as well. The reason Goku punched him is because he was going to take on a foe many times stronger than him and would have died for sure.
Even Goku knew he couldn’t beat Cell yet so he couldn’t have gone either.

[Reply] #23
01-02-2013 03:02 PM
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Nope. Goku’s just callous.

[Reply] #24
01-02-2013 03:03 PM
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Sekundes wrote:

gojira4life wrote:

smart member wrote:

gojira4life wrote:

smart member wrote:

gojira4life wrote: Goku put priority above emotions and thus makes him a model of society.

ROFL.



Duty before emotion man, it’s what we need to save lives.
It may be a bit cruel but you’ll be thankful for the way it saves lives.

No it isn’t. Goku never puts duty above emotion.



Oh no? How about his son fighting Cell? He knows Gohan can beat him but he also knows Gohan can be seriously injured but he doesn’t concede to this emotion of fear as he knows it’s the duty of the Z-fighters to defend the Earth.
He however chooses the right idea: he knows Gohan can do it and Gohan himself trusts in his father’s judgement.
He finally then tells Cell what his father means by that he can win.
Goku would never ask someone to do something for him he can do himself.



“I could have killed him anytime I want. I just wanted to give the boys something to do” -Goku referring to his fight with Fat Buu to Vegeta during the battle with Kid Buu

Mhmmmm

Also Gohan still almost died along with the earth. He pulled through in the end but still. He did almost fail. And it wouldn’t have happened if Goku didn’t have Cell recover.



Well he was dead and having the kids do the job would have been a better idea because they are the next guardians of Earth.
You don’t always have to look at it the same way you know, you have to look at the intention of the characters.
Goku could have indeed not heal Cell but I think that was mostly Toriyama wanting to have Gohan beat Cell up at his strongest when he finally becomes a SSJ2.

[Reply] #25
01-02-2013 03:07 PM
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gojira4life wrote:

Sekundes wrote:

gojira4life wrote:

smart member wrote:

gojira4life wrote:

smart member wrote:

gojira4life wrote: Goku put priority above emotions and thus makes him a model of society.

ROFL.



Duty before emotion man, it’s what we need to save lives.
It may be a bit cruel but you’ll be thankful for the way it saves lives.

No it isn’t. Goku never puts duty above emotion.



Oh no? How about his son fighting Cell? He knows Gohan can beat him but he also knows Gohan can be seriously injured but he doesn’t concede to this emotion of fear as he knows it’s the duty of the Z-fighters to defend the Earth.
He however chooses the right idea: he knows Gohan can do it and Gohan himself trusts in his father’s judgement.
He finally then tells Cell what his father means by that he can win.
Goku would never ask someone to do something for him he can do himself.



“I could have killed him anytime I want. I just wanted to give the boys something to do” -Goku referring to his fight with Fat Buu to Vegeta during the battle with Kid Buu

Mhmmmm

Also Gohan still almost died along with the earth. He pulled through in the end but still. He did almost fail. And it wouldn’t have happened if Goku didn’t have Cell recover.



Well he was dead and having the kids do the job would have been a better idea because they are the next guardians of Earth.
You don’t always have to look at it the same way you know, you have to look at the intention of the characters.
Goku could have indeed not heal Cell but I think that was mostly Toriyama wanting to have Gohan beat Cell up at his strongest when he finally becomes a SSJ2.


No. He just wanted to have the kids do it. Even though he could. You JUST said he’d never ask if he could do it himself. He could have killed Buu and had Piccolo train them.

Yes that’s why. BUT it doesn’t change Goku does reckless things and puts his kids in danger.

Vegeta is still the better father. He may not be the nicest one. But still.

[Reply] #26
01-02-2013 03:18 PM
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Sekundes wrote: Goku left his son with his greatest rival at the time(Piccolo)

Goku sent his son to a far away planet, with his son being the greatest defense against anything out there in space.

Goku put everyone’s lives in danger, sending his own son to fight against Cell.

Goku was an absent father to Goten for 7 years. Forcing Chichi and Gohan to take care of him.

Goku left for 10 years after killing Buu, thus leaving his family still without a father figure. In which time, Gohan moved out.

He then leaves to train Uub. Leaving his youngest son and wife alone. Probably Goten moves out and chichi is all alone.

While Vegeta on the other hand...

Trains his kid to be tough shit to defend himself.

Has him take place in sport fighting.

Motivates his kid with things like taking him to nice places.

He kept Trunks as well as Goten away from the fight with Majin Buu.

He even sacrifices his life knowing full well he is going to hell to save the lives of not only his wife and son. But for everyone. Even his greatest rival. (Yes, Goku sacrificed his life at the Cell games but he also wouldn’t have had to if he hadn’t have put Gohan in. He also knew he was going to heaven.)

Finally, he wanted to save his kid(and the rest) rather than Hercule and Dende. While Goku totally sacrificed both his sons and a good friend of his for some oaf and the guardian of earth.

Vegeta is also not absent for 17+ years. But even if he was, Bulma is a rich scientist who could easily care for herself and a kid. While Chichi lives in a small house and her dad is not much better off if at all.



Where would goku rank in: Worst fathers in anime/manga?


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[Reply] #27
01-02-2013 03:30 PM
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Sekundes wrote:

gojira4life wrote:

Sekundes wrote:

gojira4life wrote:

smart member wrote:

gojira4life wrote:

smart member wrote:

gojira4life wrote: Goku put priority above emotions and thus makes him a model of society.

ROFL.



Duty before emotion man, it’s what we need to save lives.
It may be a bit cruel but you’ll be thankful for the way it saves lives.

No it isn’t. Goku never puts duty above emotion.



Oh no? How about his son fighting Cell? He knows Gohan can beat him but he also knows Gohan can be seriously injured but he doesn’t concede to this emotion of fear as he knows it’s the duty of the Z-fighters to defend the Earth.
He however chooses the right idea: he knows Gohan can do it and Gohan himself trusts in his father’s judgement.
He finally then tells Cell what his father means by that he can win.
Goku would never ask someone to do something for him he can do himself.



“I could have killed him anytime I want. I just wanted to give the boys something to do” -Goku referring to his fight with Fat Buu to Vegeta during the battle with Kid Buu

Mhmmmm

Also Gohan still almost died along with the earth. He pulled through in the end but still. He did almost fail. And it wouldn’t have happened if Goku didn’t have Cell recover.



Well he was dead and having the kids do the job would have been a better idea because they are the next guardians of Earth.
You don’t always have to look at it the same way you know, you have to look at the intention of the characters.
Goku could have indeed not heal Cell but I think that was mostly Toriyama wanting to have Gohan beat Cell up at his strongest when he finally becomes a SSJ2.


No. He just wanted to have the kids do it. Even though he could. You JUST said he’d never ask if he could do it himself. He could have killed Buu and had Piccolo train them.

Yes that’s why. BUT it doesn’t change Goku does reckless things and puts his kids in danger.

Vegeta is still the better father. He may not be the nicest one. But still.



Lemme look at all the things you wrote on the OP first:

Goku:
You stated that Goku left Gohan with his son... Goku was dead, he had no saying in it at all.

Gohan opted to go himself while Goju had no choice because has was crippled. There were no senzu beans at the moment so instant recovery wasn’t in the deal.

Gohan could defeat Cell, Goku knew it and he knew he couldn’t defeat Cell in the end.

Goku sacrificed himself to save the world again by teleporting Cell to another planet. He also stated he felt like all bad guys are aiming for Goku, making him a beacon for bad people to terrorize Earth. He put the safety of Earth as a whole above his own family, which is an example of grand sacrifice. Gohan himself is proud of his father’s ambition and sacrifice.

Goku did spend 10 years training but he wasn’t gone for 10 years.
He would probably train, come home and be with his family.
He has to keep himself in shape for any future threat and to expect the reincarnation of Buu.

Goten was now old enough to take care of himself, Chi-Chi was used to the idea of Goku not being there and Gohan was married and living next door.


Vegeta:

Vegeta was alive, Goku wasn’t, not a relevant or fair comparison.

Goku again has nothing to say because he’s dead. He could speak to them with King Kai but he cannot keep watching over them or tell them what to do as he’s dead.

Goku spend quality time with Pan when she was with him, he would have done the same with Goten and train him... had he not been dead.

He knows they are not match for him but Goku knows that if they fuse together, they can beat Buu easily. Little did Goku know that Buu would become Super Buu and thus become massively stronger.
Vegeta didn’t know the fusion dance so Goku contributed more than Vegeta in the end.

Vegeta did indeed sacrifice himself but Goku did this twice.
Goku didn’t sacrifice himself with the thought that he was going to heaven, that last part wasn’t even in his mind at all.
For Goku to go to Heaven is a no brainer even.
Goku giving Gohan the fight was a way for him to give Gohan the ways to one day take over for him. he was giving him the torch as guardian of Earth. he needed to shape Gohan and expose him to dangerous foes because he has the power but not the same confidence as Goku.
A good father thinks for the good of his child but also knows when he need to be stern and sometimes, to the child’s discomfort, do things the child won’t like or isn’t directly good.
A father sending his child to learn karate exposes him to harm and injury but also gives his kid a chance to learn ways to defend himself and his loved ones.

Vegeta did want to save the kids but in the end, saving Hercule was the best choice.

So what if Bulma is rich? You mean having less makes you a bad father? That’s something you need to forget. Goku provides for his kids by farming (something seen in the ova Yo! Son Goku and his frieds return!) and fishing/killing animals for food.



So yeah, most of your points give Goku fault when he’s dead and thus not able to do anything.

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01-02-2013 03:33 PM
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asura is better than both of them

[Reply] #29
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01-02-2013 03:37 PM
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sinstrife wrote: asura is better than both of them



True.

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01-02-2013 03:41 PM
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Bender Bending Rodriguez wrote:



Indeed.
In fact, Vegeta becoming Majin in the first place only to fight Goku (and even kill dozens of people to force Goku) doesn’t prove him to be a good father at all.

Good show, my metal friend.

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01-02-2013 03:43 PM
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Goku is nicer but...


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[Reply] #33
01-02-2013 03:43 PM
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Okay here’s a list of other Terrible anime/manga/game fathers:

Shou Tucker
Jecht
Gendou Ikari
Daijuuji Kurou


Anyone who wants to add to this list go ahead, my money is on Gendo or Shou, and both make Goku look good.


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BURN IT UP!

MAJIN GO!

[Reply] #34
01-02-2013 03:44 PM
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Seiryu wrote: Okay here’s a list of other Terrible anime/manga/game fathers:

Shou Tucker
Jecht
Gendou Ikari
Daijuuji Kurou


Anyone who wants to add to this list go ahead, my money is on Gendo or Shou, and both make Goku look good.



Ayasaki Hayate’s parents.

[Reply] #35
01-02-2013 03:45 PM
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gojira4life wrote:

Bender Bending Rodriguez wrote:



Indeed.
In fact, Vegeta becoming Majin in the first place only to fight Goku (and even kill dozens of people to force Goku) doesn’t prove him to be a good father at all.

Good show, my metal friend.




When he blasted a stadium he almost took out bulma , chi chi and others he didnt care at all as long as he could fight goku ...

Goku is an idiot but at list he can show affection unlike the princo of all sayians ...


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[Reply] #36
01-02-2013 03:46 PM
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Seiryu wrote: Jecht



Fuck you, faggot. He had his reasons.

[Reply] #37
01-02-2013 03:48 PM
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Bender Bending Rodriguez wrote:

gojira4life wrote:

Bender Bending Rodriguez wrote:



Indeed.
In fact, Vegeta becoming Majin in the first place only to fight Goku (and even kill dozens of people to force Goku) doesn’t prove him to be a good father at all.

Good show, my metal friend.




When he blasted a stadium he almost took out bulma , chi chi and others he didnt care at all as long as he could fight goku ...

Goku is an idiot but at list he can show affection unlike the princo of all sayians ...



Yup and Goku knows the value of higher priority.
He knows he sometimes has to leave his loved ones behind for the greater good.
Vegeta needed to be reminded he had a family.

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01-02-2013 03:49 PM
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Wolfenstein wrote:

Seiryu wrote: Jecht



Fuck you, faggot. He had his reasons.



Yup but he was also a father with little patience for his son.

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01-02-2013 03:51 PM
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Wolfenstein wrote:

Seiryu wrote: Jecht



Fuck you, faggot. He had his reasons.



Post disappearance yes

Pre.. not as much

Annual father of the year winner

EDIT: forgot about Hayate, I’d say Jecht is the least terrible father mentioned bar Daijuuji Kurou, since both did basically the same thing but for different reasons.


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BURN IT UP!

MAJIN GO!

Edited 01-02-2013 03:52 PM by Seiryu
[Reply] #40
01-02-2013 03:55 PM
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gojira4life wrote:

Seiryu wrote: Okay here’s a list of other Terrible anime/manga/game fathers:

Shou Tucker
Jecht
Gendou Ikari
Daijuuji Kurou


Anyone who wants to add to this list go ahead, my money is on Gendo or Shou, and both make Goku look good.



Ayasaki Hayate’s parents.



Peter griffin

Carter Pewterschmidt

Rusty Venture

Yusukes father

Ferris Eris ( her parents were both equally disgusting and horrible )


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